How to Lose an Employee in 10 Days: Lessons on Building A Killer Team // Jeff Sherman
Wed Nov 16th 2022/82 mins 10 secs
On this episode
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Are you struggling with finding and keeping good employees? Learn what it really takes to onboard a new employee and how to keep valuable team members motivated and engaged.
An old friend with an epic beard – Jeff Sherman – joins us for a conversation on employees and building a solid team. Jeff has 20+ years of sign industry experience and 10+ years of running operations at a fairly large shop.
We cover a lot of topics related to building a killer team. You won't be disappointed.
In this episode...
An old friend with an epic beard – Jeff Sherman – joins us for a conversation on employees and building a solid team. Jeff has 20+ years of sign industry experience and 10+ years of running operations at a fairly large shop.
We cover a lot of topics related to building a killer team. You won't be disappointed.
In this episode...
- Jeff's new nicknames for Mike (01:25)
- Origin of the sign shop Yoda (06:14)
- Jeff's sign industry backstory (08:45)
- The biggest struggle for shops nationwide (15:20)
- Building up your people (16:32)
- Developing employees takes time (23:40)
- To grow as a business and an owner... (32:00)
- Onboarding time (33:33)
- The standard for industry training (40:35)
- Don't just learn from mistakes... (51:40)
- How to keep employees long term (53:23)
- Give employees enough space to fail (59:18)
- What caused Jeff to leave his position (1:05:09)
Follow the crusty sign guys
Bryant from Better Sign Shop
- Better Sign Shop Website: https://www.bettersignshop.com
- Better Sign Shop Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/bettersignshop
- Better Sign Shop Community for sign shop owners: https://www.facebook.com/groups/bettersignshopmastermind/
Michael from Letterbox Sign Design
- Letterbox Sign Design Website: https://www.letterboxsigndesign.com/
- Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Letterboxsigndesign
Peter from Sign Shop Consulting
- Sign Shop Consulting Website: https://www.signshopconsulting.com/
Interested in being a potential guest on the show?
Have questions you'd like to hear us answer on the air?
Email us at hey@bettersignshop.com
Have questions you'd like to hear us answer on the air?
Email us at hey@bettersignshop.com
Transcripts are automatically generated with AI and may contain errors.
00:00:00Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, [00:00:15] workflow, growth, and more. You're listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter Kaunas, Michael Riley and Bryant Gillespie.[00:00:30]
00:00:31Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Right guys, we are back with the next edition of the Better Sign Shop podcast. As always, I've got my colleague, the side shop, Yoda, Peter Kaunas. Hi Pete. [00:00:45]
00:00:45Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: What's up everybody?
00:00:47Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: Nice to see everyone again.
00:00:49Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: And we also actually have Mike the signed burrito costume with us this week. Thank you. You look good in
00:00:58Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: that man.[00:01:00]
00:01:01Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: It's, I could see why your wife married you, you stud. Um, uh, and then we, I've been saying this for years. We've also got a special guest, uh, an old friend of ours, Jeff Sherman, out on the West Coast, Jeff. You
00:01:14Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: signed, [00:01:15] Jeff? Hello. Hello, Hello. How was everybody doing? Thanks for having me in, guys.
00:01:21Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Right. Happy to have you on. Yeah, we're excited. So,
00:01:25Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: so the, the signed burrito thing, I, I, I listened to your last [00:01:30] episode and, uh, you had people, uh, you, you put out a challenge for people to come up with new Mike. So I, i, I, I hope you don't mind, but I took the opportunity to, to try to throw a couple together in preparation for today's session.
00:01:45 throw those out there for you, Paul. I can't wait. Let's hear it.
00:01:48Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I don't wanna be the burrito anymore, so. Okay,
00:01:50Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: well, well save me, Rescue me. Well start starting with that one. Um, I'm actually just gonna go with the sign Chimichanga. Um, Brian, you know, you, you got, you got the sign, you got the [00:02:00] signed burrito, but I really think Mike's a bit, cru ears in that.
00:02:09Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Touche. Chi Changa. Okay, That's Nu Uno.
00:02:13Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: All right. Uh, we're, we're [00:02:15] just gonna go simple. Sign Master General Sign
00:02:18Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Master General.
00:02:19Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Okay. Sign Master General. Mike, you like that one or no? Yes. Let's, Mike, you gotta give, like, you gotta rate each one of these.
00:02:29Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Right. Like, [00:02:30] I like Chi Cho. I like that one, but I, Let's back up Sign Chi Choa.
00:02:39Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: I don't, I don't, Well,
00:02:40Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: well, I don't, I don't wanna like it, but I do.
00:02:44Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Let's, uh, sign Master [00:02:45] General. What, what are your thoughts on that?
00:02:47Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I'm like 50 50 on that one. I like it, It sounds more official, but like, it's not as
00:02:51Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: appropriate. Okay. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna go to the weakest one next, but it's, you know, topical, the fine husband.
00:03:00 one's, that one's good. We, we know we're all married to our business, you know, as, as sick as that is. Uh, we'll, we'll, we'll go old school. Sign your Wednesday
00:03:15
00:03:30 Mad
00:03:35Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I, ok. Those are
00:03:39Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: the signed shop, Berry White, the signed podcast Berry White Mike. I'm [00:03:45] trying to resist the podcast. Berry White. Give us a few bars. Dude,
00:03:51Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I'm try, Well, I'm trying really hard. Not, I'm trying to think of a Barry White song. My brain just went like totally spaced outta me. Hang on, let me look at some.
00:03:57Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: My first, my last, my everything went . [00:04:00] Yeah.
00:04:00Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. I didn't, he he just got married. Like, like, come on now. Did you not get, I know you'd think I would, You didn't play any very white at the reception.
00:04:09Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: We didn't.
00:04:11Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: I don't remember. Oh, that's good. That's
00:04:14Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: a good sign, [00:04:15] right? Yeah, No, I, I don't know. Like I, that's a tough one.
00:04:24Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: item. I'm tired to
00:04:27Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: that, but the chi
00:04:28Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: is really funny. Like [00:04:30]
00:04:30Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I can't help it . It's totally random. It makes
00:04:34Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: no sense at it.
00:04:34Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: Definitely has my vote. I think that
00:04:36Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: is the most well articulated name for you,
00:04:42Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: beyond just being
00:04:44Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: such [00:04:45] a plain stale burrito.
00:04:49Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to Home Depot and get like some brown spray paint and just make this look like it's toasted . Yeah. I can, I
00:04:56Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: can wear, Yeah, definitely. You could do that. Absolutely. Yeah. What do [00:05:00] you think are those little yellow things on your shoulder? What, what? What would
00:05:04Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: that look like?
00:05:07Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: assuming it's cheddar cheese, which is really inauthentic. Shouldn't be yellow cheese and a burrito, but, And I guess these are tomatoes. [00:05:15] I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why it's a, I don't know why it's a burrito. That's the weird
00:05:19Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: part. burrito. It looked kind, I mean, grow over here.
00:05:29Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: you're not getting the full [00:05:30] effect of it. You gotta like, see .
00:05:34Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Oh, it's
00:05:34Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: like, it's got a nice little fold on
00:05:36Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: the belly.
00:05:45 this is how you a tight
00:05:46Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: burrito. Yeah. . But I, I am sweating like a pig. Like
00:05:50Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: this is really hot. The signed chi changa. See that one's got flavors. You give it a little kick to it. Uh, if you're listening to this one, let us know what you [00:06:00] think of those five. We're leaning towards signed Chi Changa, but it may change next episode if
00:06:05Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: you're, if you're still listening.
00:06:15 Yoda come from? Bryant. Okay. That's where that, that's where it came from. Um,
00:06:21Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: I, I honestly didn't come up with it. It's, I am a Star Wars fan. Okay. Uh, not, I don't warrant myself being the [00:06:30] Yoda, but it was a name that was given on me and bestowed upon me.
00:06:36Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: You gotta ride it. So I was, this is when I had, uh, hired Pete to do videos for us at Shop Fox. Mm-hmm. , and I was looking for a way to introduce him. Uh, he had, [00:06:45] I think he had just got done with whatever clause that he had about his selling his franchise. So he came on board to do videos and I was like, Hey, how am I gonna introduce this guy?
00:06:57Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: I was like, just rolled through to,
00:06:59Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, [00:07:00] it was something like, we started with like Guru or something like that, and I was like, this just doesn't fit. So somehow, I don't know if like the new Star Wars had come out at that time, how many years ago that was. Uh, but it just, It stuck, man. Or maybe it [00:07:15] was, uh, maybe it was when the No, it wasn't the Mandalorian that was Baby Yoda.
00:07:19Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: might. It might, yeah. But it might have been like, uh, around that time when, where it came out the first season, it might have been optic. Look
00:07:27Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: back, you know, [00:07:30] if we're talking baby Yoda then you know, Mike's got that look down. Totally right.
00:07:38Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: Mike. Mike, the baby Yoda. Uh,
00:07:39Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: alright, well, no, I derivative.
00:07:44Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I [00:07:45] wanna know, I wanna know Bryan, like the sign shop Yoda rolled right off your tongue for Peter, like, The signed burrito came to mind for me. Like it's .
00:07:55Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: It's, that's what I was telling Jeff. You eat so many tacos [00:08:00] and Mexican food and like every time I talk to you, you're at, you're in the drive through at Taco Bell.
00:08:15 lunch at Taco Bell. Can I call you back? I'm like, like, Okay. Yeah, I got.
00:08:20Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Okay. That's, that's fair. I'll go, I'll give you that .
00:08:23Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: So I learned something new about Mike today.
00:08:30
00:08:33Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Yeah, I love it. This nacho fries man are so good. As we get
00:08:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: into it, um, obviously anybody listening out there, you haven't been on the podcast before, Jeff, why don't you give us your [00:08:45] sign industry backstory?
00:08:47Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Sure. Uh, well I think like a lot of people, I got into the sign industry on accident.
00:09:00 now. Um, Literally through a miscommunication. Uh, my, my, my grandfather moved into a, uh, a condo complex and, uh, got to talking to one of his neighbors. And, uh, they got to the part of, you know, what do you do for a living?
00:09:15 vehicle graphics. And all my grandfather heard was graphics and I'd gone to school for graphic design. So my grandfather said, Oh, my, my grandson does that. And the guy said, Hey, I'm kinda looking for somebody for the shop once you bring him [00:09:30] over. And so I went over and.
00:09:45 wraps. Basically used to do all the stuff for, for Red Bull, believe it or not, out of a little tiny, uh, three man shop in, in Huntington Beach over here.
00:10:00 top of them. Yes. That driving around the little, the little, uh, mini Coopers or whatever, they're, they did Mini Coopers at one point. They started off with, um, they were Suzukis like, I can't remember.
00:10:15 something like that, I think is what it was called. Um, and they would retrofit those things and these cans onto them. And we did all the, all the graphics for that. And this was, this was like pre, this was like early, early digital days.
00:10:30 the, the companies that were modifying the cars would, uh, you know, build a rigs and then take, convert the trunks into coolers and then paint the, the things in the silver and blue, and then we'd come out and put two color, uh, CAD cut vinyl on it.
00:10:45 their, uh, their fleet. The delivery vehicles all out of a little, little shop. It was crazy. Had a couple, couple 48 inch Rollins that we were running like 24 7 just to ship hits all over the, all over the.
00:10:57Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Nice. I haven't heard anybody say CAD cut [00:11:00] vinyl in so long.
00:11:01Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Oh, really? Really? What? Okay. They gave, they gave me the
00:11:03Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: warm and fuzzies.
00:11:04Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: It's pretty funny. What, what? Okay, so I'm, I'm, I'm old school apparently. What, uh, what is, what is, what does everybody call it? Oh, it's just always
00:11:12Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: cut vinyl now. I haven't heard anybody about [00:11:15] the CAD in front of it. Okay. All right.
00:11:18Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: yeah, I mean, I guess as an old school, what are the other options at this point? I mean, you gonna do non CAD cut vinyl, I guess? Yeah, it is a little redundant in it. Okay. Well, hey, thanks for the, the, [00:11:30] the, the, uh, the education I'm gonna head out now. Um, , thanks for making me feel old.
00:11:45 So I got a ton of ADA signage and interior sign system design and manufacturer and install, uh, under my belt.
00:12:00 it's been a, it's been an interesting, an interesting ride. Um, you know, I find myself at this point in my career kinda reevaluating. Where my strengths and where my weaknesses are in the sign business. For the longest time, I've been [00:12:15] kind of the resident subject matter expert within the company.
00:12:30 fielding messages and, and quick calls and answering questions to everybody in the, in the company, from the sales side, project management, fabrication design, Pretty much [00:12:45] everybody soup to nuts in the, in the business would, would hit me up with, Hey, I've got this thing.
00:13:00 What's, you know, how do we install this? What's the hardware I need? How do I deal with the city on this? I, I mean, literally I was like the Wikipedia of the company. I, it was, it was a very odd, very odd role.
00:13:15 mean, technically speaking, for the longest time, my, my title was Vice President of Operations, but honestly, it was, I mean Chief Cook and bottle washer, you know, But yeah, it was af Jeff, you know, forget Ask Jeans and Yes. Yes. [00:13:30] There's another old one for your mic. Okay. Ask. Cause nobody remembers that either.
00:13:37Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Do you
00:13:37Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: That one was cool, right? Yeah. I, I actually never even used it. I just knew it was a thing. Um, but yeah, it was just, it was, it was like, that [00:13:45] was the company process, you know? You got a question, you just ask. Yes. You don't, you don't look it up, you don't look into records, whatever.
00:13:59Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: [00:14:00] And that's how Jim and I got introduced to each other through Shop Box.
00:14:04Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: This is true. Yes. How, Let me ask you this. Let me ask you as a follow up here. Sure. In a way, you became the Sign Shop general, right? If, if you got, if you have all. [00:14:15] Of these people asking you
00:14:16Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: questions, you're, you are the source of all of
00:14:20Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: all of those answers.
00:14:30 components to your business that you know, that everybody goes
00:14:34Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: to? How does that make you feel as an owner? Well, so let a couple things. Uh, number one, and, and, and you don't know this, so forgive me for correcting it like this, but I wasn't the owner.
00:14:45 I, I, it was the small shop when I started. There were five people there, but I got hired on, uh, I was a hired, um, okay. So, you know, there's that layer to that onion, but, um, you know, it's at a certain level of gratifying. It's good to know that you bring a [00:15:00] value, that people value what you contribute, that value, that people.
00:15:15 the kinda lack of training that went in, you know, systemically into the company as, as a culture. Um, you know, it, and I was just talking to somebody, I was interviewing with somebody yesterday morning, um, and asked them what their biggest struggle was.
00:15:30 And, and without dropping any names, I'm just gonna say this is one of the largest national companies in the US that I was talking to yesterday. Um, and I asked them what their biggest challenges were as an organization, and one of the first things he mentioned was, was people, [00:15:45] you know, um, finding signed people.
00:16:00 there's, there's, it's very difficult to supplant just time and experience. You know, you can, you can, you can support it. Um, but I think the way that, [00:16:15] the situation that I ended up in where everybody was constantly coming to me asking questions is, is an example of, Maybe not having a so good of a, uh, system of, of onboarding and, and building a, a, uh, a basis of knowledge within the [00:16:30] staff.
00:16:31Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: So let's, let's start with that for a moment. For our listeners out there that are always concerned about finding people, there's tons of owners out there that own their own shops and they have the same problem, right? Mm-hmm. , [00:16:45] they have the same problem. Like, where, uh, how can I find people, How can I find people, But I don't want to talk about how to find people.
00:17:00 have experience and what have you done in, in your experience to build them up so that they can become sign guys or sign people, whatever you
00:17:10Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: wanna call em.
00:17:15 and. Most effective ways of dealing with that is doing rotations through all of the areas in your business, whatever that might be. Uh, so many of us, and I'm I I, I mentioned [00:17:30] this before we started here, many of us are that kind of chief cook and bottle washer is, is a sign guy.
00:17:45 I'm a sign designer or I'm a science fabricator, or I sell signs, or I'm a project manager. Yes, there are companies that are structured that way, but even in those companies, the people that tend to succeed in this [00:18:00] industry, at least from what I've seen, are the ones that are a little more rounded and at least understand how, what it is that they're doing impacts the overall process because, You know, every single little thing that we touch [00:18:15] from the sales conversations to what we recommend to the customer is the solution to what gets designed to get what gets produced ultimately has an impact on the final product and how well it suits what the client needed [00:18:30] and how happy they're gonna be with it, right?
00:18:45 areas and let them experience the different areas. So send your sign designer into the shop. Let 'em, let 'em work with the guys. Let 'em, let 'em weed some vinyl.
00:19:00 wanna discourage a sign designer from setting up quarter inch? Cut copy, cut vinyl, copy. Let 'em try to weed some of it for about an hour. , um, , uh, what else? Um, yeah, put put em, you know, put em, let em let em go. Maybe don't put 'em in the paint booth. You know, [00:19:15] put 'em in air, but let, let, let him get around it, you know?
00:19:30 five inch deep channel. Let him have a conversation with the guy in metals, spas, trying to get his, his, his welding gun down to the inside of the channel and grip at him about, Hey, you see how this doesn't fit in here,
00:19:45 people through there. You know? So what you're
00:19:47Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: saying is you, you basically take them through all phases of your operation from anywhere, from front of the house to very deep into fabrication, possibly even into installation, I
00:19:58Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: would guess, as well, [00:20:00] out in the future. Absolutely.
00:20:01Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: And, and you're, and you're getting them ex, you're giving them exposure into all elements of what this business is. Mm-hmm. And then, and then at the end of the. You're hoping that they're gonna pick up some of those nuggets, right? Like that there, [00:20:15] that there's gonna be something there that resonates with them, that teaches them, that exposes them, that maybe they could find a home with comfortability in some of those aspects.
00:20:30 they are receiving some nuggets, Like they can walk around and I could play around in your paint booth. Sure. I don't know if I'm gonna learn anything. So what do you do
00:20:37Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: to kinda enforce that? So it, it has to be a guided activity. I mean, you, you need to [00:20:45] map out.
00:21:00 'em to see, show 'em how things are cut. Show 'em how you load the media. Show 'em how things are weeded.
00:21:15 a, an actual agenda for the day. Then you gotta sit down with them at the end of the day. And talk to 'em about it. Do a, do a debrief with them. Ask them questions.
00:21:30 what kind of things made sense? What things didn't make sense when you saw this? Did, did, do you know why they were doing that? So, to me, any kind of training program and that, that's gonna have value and is gonna stick, [00:21:45] my approach always goes to give, give the, give the holistic, give them the, how does this fit into the bigger picture?
00:22:00 this is how it's done. If I don't understand why something is done the way it's done, odds are I'm not gonna quite grab onto it. Or at very least, I'm not gonna buy in. If I don't buy in, then it's not gonna, you know, it, it, it's not [00:22:15] gonna grab you.
00:22:17Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: there, there's, there's definitely an, there's definitely an old Benjamin Franklin quote that really resonate, resonates with what you are talking about. You know, it's, it's a quote that I've taught about. It's a, it's a quote that [00:22:30] I live by, you know, it says, it says, Tell me and I forget, teach me and I or may remember, but involve me and I learn mm-hmm.
00:22:45 going to retain a lot. And essentially yes. You can't find that in any training manual. So the only thing that, that our listeners need to make sure that they're doing, when, if they, if there are sign shop owners out there that are [00:23:00] doing it very similarly, like to you, that you are, is that they need to have some sort of sit down the checks and balances of it all, where they're gonna sit down and they're gonna say, Hey, You know, tell me what you picked up on.
00:23:15 your fears, What are your doubts? What are you excited about? Mm-hmm. . And then let's kind of talk through those points. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's, that, that's a really great way of developing people in this business. I, I tend to really like that. Mm-hmm.
00:23:30 how long it takes. Sure. Right. It's not like you can, it's not like you give them a playbook. Mm-hmm. , you're, you're giving them, you're giving them, you're working around your operation schedule. Mm-hmm. , you're working around your schedule. Mm-hmm. and sometimes that could be convoluted.
00:23:45 usually the pushback there. What are your comments on
00:23:46Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: that? Um, I mean, let's face it, No matter how you slice this, this onion, uh, training people and developing people is a time consuming process. Um, if you're concerned about the amount of time that that's gonna take, think about how much time it's gonna take to [00:24:00] replace that person when they don't work for you.
00:24:15 replacement cycle and doing that is much more expensive from a time and, and, and money perspective. So put the time in and get it right. Right. You, you, and, and you, you, you don't get, you don't get a lot of opportunities for that, [00:24:30] you know?
00:24:45 and I, I can talk about some of the reasons why that was, but, and some of it really was in the onboarding processes.
00:24:55Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: about that. That's, that's a really great thing to bring up here. Yeah. You know, when you're [00:25:00] talking around, when you're talking about people, right? Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , and you're, you have to, you have to talk about turnover, so mm-hmm.
00:25:15 during recruitment?
00:25:16Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Mm-hmm. and also onboard. So one of the, one of the biggest things on the recruitment side, and I know a lot of small business owners are guilty of this, um, listen, during your interviews, [00:25:30] ask questions and shut up and let the interviewee talk.
00:25:45 A quarter of the talking, maybe more, less, uh, almost as though the business owner is more intent on selling the job to the applicant than the other way around. I don't know if any of you've [00:26:00] experienced that or seen it, but I've witnessed it more times than I can possibly count.
00:26:09Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: what do you, uh, what do you attribute that to? Like, Hey, I'm just trying to fill the seat. Or like, [00:26:15] Hey, the, the person doing the interview is nervous. I mean, I can, I can kinda understand if it's, if it's a smaller shop and like you're a newer owner mm-hmm.
00:26:30 prone to talking more than you should. Mm-hmm. . But,
00:26:32Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: um, I think a fair amount of it is that I need a body, you know, people, So sometimes it's, it's the, we waited too long. We really needed [00:26:45] somebody two months ago, but we didn't think about it, and now we're in dire need.
00:27:00 let's, let's get you in and, and, and see how you do . Um, which, you know, I, i, I don't agree with, but I, again, I, I've seen it. Um, the small shop thing I think really plays into it. I, I mean even, even at the peak where I was before, you know, over, over 40 employees, [00:27:15] there was still, but still a small shop.
00:27:30 was, is, was breaking out of that small shop mentality of the, of the five man shop. That was, that it was, when I started there.
00:27:45 actual hiring practices and, and, and that sort of thing. Um, that's, that's something that I know I've witnessed twice now owners struggling with, of, of getting beyond where they were when they started [00:28:00] the organization.
00:28:15 regardless of what the, the rest of the team tries to do. , there's always a portion of that owner that's, that's, that's, that's visible in that, in, in that business.
00:28:30 I listened to the last podcast and you guys were talking to tj, uh, uh, the, was it gci? The, the, Yeah, the print company. Right. Great example. I mean, just, just talking to him and hearing him talk about his business, that that business is a reflection of him. [00:28:45] A hundred percent. That's, that's the customer experience is everything that TJ says that should be and is, and talks about that's that business.
00:29:00 on what the business looks like and, and, and basically having a difficulty of kind of separating themselves out of it and letting the business grow into what it can be as a bigger. Standalone entity [00:29:15] to get to those larger levels. I think, you know, people talk about the, the, the hurdle for, for small businesses, you know, like the first one being like cracking that million dollar a year mark, and then the next one's the 5 million mark, and then after that it's 10, and once you hit 10, it [00:29:30] kind of goes exponential from there.
00:29:45 Part of that was c you know, chalk that up to what it was. But honestly, I think even if that had all been taken outta the equation, I think the business would still be, you know, hovering right around five to 6 million a.
00:30:00 Because I don't think it's been able to evolve beyond that small business mentality yet. And I, and I think that's a, I think that's a struggle that that ownership is gonna have there in, in, in doing that. So I think
00:30:14Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: that's [00:30:15] like a whole hour long conversation in and of itself probably. Oh, yeah. Getting past this mentality that so often we have, you know, and, and like admittedly even I like personally have some of those [00:30:30] hangups now.
00:30:45 beliefs that were there 10 years ago when I was young and, and tons of credit card debt. Yeah. They still bubble up to the surface sometimes.
00:31:00 be an asset in the very beginning because you're driving the whole thing. Mm-hmm. , nobody's more invested than you are. Mm-hmm. if you can't let go of the reins, and I've, I've seen this inside shops and other companies that I've worked for.
00:31:15 A. Little bit there. Um, if, if the owner is afraid to let go of the reins a bit, then you, you stall out growth, you add all this complexity and headache. Uh, let's say for an instance, you spend [00:31:30] hours and hours or weeks and weeks putting all these processes in place. I know you know what I'm talking about because you set up your shop box account mm-hmm.
00:31:45 else, higher up to come in and just totally dis, dis um, not even pay attention to the process at all, just skip the process. Uhhuh.
00:31:55Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Well, and you know, it, it, you mentioned something there, and it kind of goes back to Pete's question from [00:32:00] earlier, the, the, um, if, if as an owner.
00:32:15 that you brought them in to do, and you, if you're unable to allow them a certain level of autonomy to help you move that business forward, then those people will leave. So we talked about kind of turnover and churn that I, that, that, that I [00:32:30] saw, uh, uh, from from an employee base.
00:32:45 what the, what the role was. Because it was, again, a more of a sales pitch to get them into the door rather than an actual recruiting and, and, and hiring process.
00:33:00 letting them, uh, do what it was that they needed to do. Not empowering them, you know, tasking them, but then coming in and stepping in and taking things over and not letting them do what they need to do and not letting them fail. Being afraid to let them [00:33:15] fail, you know, going back to the training thing, you, you've gotta be able to let people make mistakes.
00:33:30
00:33:30Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: A hundred percent. Let me ask you this, Jeff. Yeah. I, I was having this conversation with somebody earlier today on one of my 8,000 meetings that I've had this week, but it, like, what was the, you guys did a fair bit of fabrication.[00:33:45]
00:33:58Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Uh, you, you mean, so you're talking an, uh, an [00:34:00] inexperienced person, a a, a green, a green hire.
00:34:02Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: Yeah.
00:34:03Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Basically I, I've got this guy that I was talking to, having a very hard time finding anybody that's, that's actually skilled in the, the trade mm-hmm.
00:34:15 the story for a lot of shop owners that we talk
00:34:17Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: to. Sure, sure. Um, I, I would say a minimum of six months to like, have actual, like solid contribution value. You'll probably start generally figure you start breaking even around month three or [00:34:30] four on like, you know, what you're paying them versus what you might be getting out of them in a, in a, in a contribution to the production.
00:34:45 dollars off the labor that you're getting out of them. Um, and to have a, like is every shop is so different on how they run things. And, and, and I, I've, I've, you know, it's one of those funny things working for the same place for almost 19 [00:35:00] years.
00:35:15 so I, I do know that, that some places, you know, they, they'll have people that just do one particular thing.
00:35:30 runs the CNC and what have you. For us, we had a, we had a finished department that, you know, they would do everything. Like we didn't have a painter or two painters.
00:35:45 They'd do plastics fab, they'd do vinyl applications, they do painting, they do prep, they do edge treatments, they do trim capping. They do, you know, banner lays. They, they pretty much, you know, were all [00:36:00] around signs, fabricators. So to get somebody from nothing to that kinda level, I mean, you're talking years, but you know specifically Yeah, I'd say at least six months.
00:36:15 how do you approach that? You know, do, do you do the approach that I'm talking about, where do you send your fabricator out with your installer, right? Do you take the time, Do you invest the time to, to give them that extra, that extra [00:36:30] training do? I mean, for me, sending a fabricator out with an installer is huge because them getting to see something out in the field or experience something out in the field, maybe the difference between them building something one [00:36:45] way or building something slightly different so it's easier for install down, down, down the field.
00:36:52Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Absolutely. Yeah. And I know that's one of your claims to fame, Mike, on the sign. side of things [00:37:00] is like, Hey, I know I've been in the field. I know what it's like to have to improvise on an install because the designer didn't do his homework. Mm-hmm. on the front end.
00:37:11Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Yeah. That's, that's, that's huge. I mean, I'm [00:37:15] amazed at how many shops don't understand that.
00:37:30 Well, not everyone, but I mean, they, they definitely need to spend some time out in the field with the installers because install is a totally different discipline than anything else that happens under the roof in the shop.
00:37:45 there and done that and seen the shit hit the fan in the field and you. Think on your feet, Figure out how to fix this. Cause you know, like remaking the sign isn't an option. Like it's gotta be on the wall today.
00:38:00 and seeing those guys figure it out in real time A is amazing. I mean, like installers in this industry don't, don't get the praise that they deserve. Yep. They are, I don't even know what the right adjective for them is, but they're miracle workers and a lot of the [00:38:15] things that they face in the field could and should be prevented if everybody else in front of that understood what the installers had to face.
00:38:30 participating in or observing installations because there's so much to learn there that, you know, in this industry where the rubber hits the road is, is critical. And that's where it turns, It goes from a fabrication project or an art project to [00:38:45] a construction project.
00:39:00 too. I, I, I saw the same thing at my shop, the three to six months to really start seeing.
00:39:15 mean, you have to look at it as that's investment time only. You can't, even if somebody's a really seasoned, experienced sign person, they're probably not gonna start contributing right away because you do things a little bit differently.
00:39:30 industry from one shop to the next. Right.
00:39:31Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Very least your shop's laid out different. Right. Right.
00:39:35Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Exactly. Like, I don't, I don't know where this tool is. It's gonna take me an hour to find it. Um, yeah. I, I think that if you're hiring a new employee, like you just have to look at that first three to six month onboarding time as.
00:39:45 as, as an investment and only an investment. And, and I think that's where a lot of shop owners fall short is they're, you know, like you said, they're so desperate to get somebody in that seat that they, they don't have the forward vision to recognize that this person isn't going to solve my problems right away.
00:40:00 while. And, and so then that just keeps that business owner in the mindset of, of doing everything themselves and not delegating, and not giving people the, the time and space to learn and make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. Mm-hmm. . And so then they never learn. And then that problem is never solved.
00:40:15 compound over and over
00:40:15Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: time. Mm-hmm. . Well, so, I mean, you, you all, uh, you, you, uh, you had a franchise, right? You, you own, you owned a franchise. You ran a franchise. I created a franchise. Yes. You created a franchise? [00:40:30] Yes. Oh, okay. All right. . Um, that's, that's a whole, that's
00:40:34Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: why I called him Sign Shop Yoga.
00:40:36Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: That's right. Edit the franchise. I, I wasn't, I was not aware of that. Okay. Well, good on you, man. Um, that's, that's a, that's a whole other, uh, that's a whole [00:40:45] other, uh, uh, beast there. And, and Brian, I know you had your shop and Mike, you had your shop. So having like, did each of you have struggles with, How did you onboard people?
00:41:00
00:41:00Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Throw them to the fire? My friend. That's, that's the like 95% solution for every shop that we talk to. Hey, watch this guy work for two weeks, and then hey, you're gonna contribute. You know? Um, yeah. Back in the [00:41:15] day, I didn't know what I know now. Yeah. You know, we, we. Tried. Um, yeah, we were in a super small town, which is always hard to find talented people.
00:41:30 had a good work ethic and could show up on time and willing to learn and put in the hours because it's, uh, it's not easy work. Mm-hmm. and it's, you know, you can't show up hungover at a 30 minutes late and expect to do
00:41:44Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: good work. [00:41:45] You can Oh, okay.
00:41:48Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: least I could
00:41:50Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Unless you're owner. Unless you're the owner. You're the owner. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I'll tell you, you know, being in Southern California with, you know, [00:42:00] literally millions upon millions of people in the area, it's still difficult to find people who wanna work and put in a, a hard day's work and, you know, be willing to stand on their feet and, you know, this, that, and the other [00:42:15] thing.
00:42:30 have, you know, you're gonna weed vinyl for a week, so let's just, you know, let's just pull a bunch of vinyl at you and expect you to do that.
00:42:45 prepping things for your paint guy and, you know, eventually you get him productive. I dunno, that's, uh,
00:42:51Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: that's fun stuff. Yeah.
00:43:00 anybody else, I tried to be more strategic about that and have, uh, like an actual plan. Like, Hey, here's your first three or four weeks. Mm-hmm. . Um, but, but honestly should have extended that even further.
00:43:12Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: if, if, I think that's, that's a tricky [00:43:15] comparison though too, because like something like training people to use software, I mean, there's a lot of nuances to it that are customer specific, but it, it's cut. It's a little bit more of a repeat. Yeah. It's a little bit more a repeatable process where there's no creativity, signages.[00:43:30]
00:43:30Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I mean,
00:43:32Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: you can get creative just to kinda, well, the board . I don't know if it's the same kind of creativity. I, you know, I think, I think in a sign shop like it, because every job is so, so different. Even [00:43:45] if, if this job calls for, you know, metal fabrication and paint and vinyl and, and assembly and whatever, even though the steps are fairly similar from sign to sign, like every sign is so different and there's so much, there's, there's, there's just, there's a [00:44:00] huge difference from one side to the next.
00:44:15 it's hard to put a really, like a hard and fast like training program in place that.
00:44:30 there's zero substitute for experience. Mm-hmm. and just hands on, you know, rolling up your sleeves and doing it and screwing it up a few times to, to be successful.
00:44:45 is the people that are successful, the ones that are gonna be able to learn from their mistakes and, and, and piece that, you know, piece of thread together there and say, Okay, this is what I did.
00:45:00 I'm gonna do it this way. If somebody doesn't have that ability to do that, no matter what, like no matter how good your training program is, they're not gonna, they're not gonna be successful in this industry or any.
00:45:15 That's just that innate, You gotta
00:45:16Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: ask. Yeah. When I was, when I was training owners, or when I was training employees or recruiting, the, the, the number one bucket for me was they needed to have this, do whatever it takes mentality, you know, and mm-hmm.
00:45:30 speaks to what Mike was just saying, but also what you said earlier, Jeff, is that, you know, God gave you two ears in one mouth, so you should listen more than you should talk, Right? So when you're, when you're interviewing those people, even in that first [00:45:45] interview process, or even on the phone call, the first phone call during the recruitment, you know, you're, I'm, I'm training my owners and training my, uh, managers that whoever's doing the rehiring and recruiting, that you are looking to ask questions to [00:46:00] see how they're gonna respond in that.
00:46:15 even second I, I'll echo that, but I'll go a step, I'll go a step beyond that and that people that are successful have to go into this knowing that they will make mistakes.
00:46:30 they have to learn from those mistakes. So whether that's hiring the right people or hiring the wrong people, or training somebody, or training somebody terribly and then it didn't work out. They have to be able to make changes, whether it's incremental [00:46:45] or drastic.
00:47:00 tip for, for some of the, um, owners out there just that are thinking about how to prove that their training could be better or how to make their training better, there is a great tool out there, um, called One [00:47:15] Huddle.
00:47:22Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: They, they have rethought thought
00:47:24Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: and reimplemented the strategy of how people. Thinking about training and turned [00:47:30] it into games to play. So they gamified the training platform. So you can make a course that, say for a graphic designer, you can make a course of videos to watch.
00:47:45 download them from YouTube and that if you want, you can only take the easy way. You can do it that way, or you could make your own and then you're gonna give a game that you're gonna play. After watching that video or reading this article or [00:48:00] case study and you're gonna quantify their knowledge, right?
00:48:15 to have like that competitive nature that games normally have. So I've seen, I've seen a couple of shops go this way. You know, there are a lot of shops that use like train to develop manuals and courses and little and pieces and collateral and things like that.[00:48:30]
00:48:45 By getting them to do something. Compete is a way of retaining knowledge and, and maybe shortening that window from what you said earlier about minimum six months.
00:49:00 three months or maybe even sooner, depending on the role and the size of the company. But for the most part, and I think I was talking to Brian about this earlier in the week, that there is a, there's a line in the sand right there, there's a line in [00:49:15] the sand between shop owners, shop managers, and, and then there's franchise owners, right?
00:49:30 earlier, when you're buying a franchise, you're not buying, Yeah, okay. You could be buying their name. Sure, but if you are, But what you're really buying is all those systematic approaches that you and I are discussing that shop owners on the other side of [00:49:45] the fence don't have, They have to invest time and money into designing and making it themselves.
00:50:00 training on how to recruit, training on how to hire, what interview questions to ask, what job descriptions you should write out, you know, all of that has been done. All you gotta do is just take it, change a couple of variables and throw it out there in the universe for [00:50:15] your shop.
00:50:30 strategies that you find in this sector of the business. Franchising in the signed business gets a bad name.
00:50:45 do these little stickers. I think
00:50:46Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: the hosts have made the host made,
00:50:49Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: but, but what you're not seeing behind that fence might also add some value to what you're saying is that if you are a shop that's struggling in these areas, that you [00:51:00] don't have the time to, to, to coach or onboard or develop those training manuals or playbooks, whatever you wanna call them, that, that there is an avenue for you.
00:51:15 all of that. Uh, obviously it costs money. It's gonna, it's it, but if you don't have time, then you have money. If you don't have money, then you must have time. So, For those of us that are, that. Well, that's what I was getting at. If you don't have time or if you don't have [00:51:30] time or money, go work for somebody else.
00:51:32Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Don't Yeah. Don't, don't start a business. Yes. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I, something occurred to me as you were talking about that, Pete, it, um, we talk about learning from our [00:51:45] mistakes. You know, I, I wanna say there's a, there's a value also. You need to be willing and able to learn from your successes.
00:52:00 and, and figure out what you did right. And then try to replicate that, you know, so, so, so often we only focus on the mistakes, the areas of failure. [00:52:15] and we lost Mike. Oh, . We had . That's like, what's back there? . . So it's so awesome.
00:52:23Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: a guy in a burrito suit holding a . It's
00:52:26Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: something you just don't see.[00:52:30]
00:52:41Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: My life is very strange. Yes.
00:52:43Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Mine just got a little bit surreal [00:52:45] as well. But yeah, , um, yeah, I mean, you know, learn, don't, don't just focus on the failures, Learn from the mistakes, but figure out what, what went, what went right. Why, you know, if, if, if you find somebody.
00:53:00 where they make a really solid decision to change something or do something, ask 'em why they did it, find out what their thought process was, figure out what went into building that thought processes and see what you can do to spread that. You know, [00:53:15] just to, just the thought off of this.
00:53:21Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Yeah.
00:53:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: You've obviously, uh, you were at your former company for
00:53:27Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: 19 years, you said? Almost 8, 18, 18 years. [00:53:30] 11 months and yeah, just, just at 11 months. Six
00:53:35Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: hours. Yes. Three days. Yes, exactly.
00:53:39Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: and what, what is, obviously that's a long time. Mm-hmm.
00:53:45 the this day and age. Like I was talking with somebody else yesterday that they mentioned something about, uh, millennials think that that three years is a long time in a job. Mm-hmm. , what did they do right to keep you there for 19 years [00:54:00]
00:54:00Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: ish? Um. Well, the, the, the role developed and expanded to take advantage of my skill set, I think is the, you know, it was recognized where my strengths were and I was allowed to [00:54:15] apply my strengths into different areas.
00:54:30 it's because they're not allowed to, you know, have their voice heard, you know, and, and, and anybody, I don't care who it is, I don't care if it's the guy that you brought in to, to sweep the floors.
00:54:45 brain in his head. He's gonna have some idea about something. Giving people a, an actual valid and, and and effective forum, or even just an ability to know that they can be heard [00:55:00] and respected and valued as part for, for the contribution that they bring that's gonna, that's gonna buy you your longevity.
00:55:15 Well, I just need to give raises or bonuses or this kinda stuff. Yeah, Money helps, but it only buys you so much. It really does. You know, I would not have, It doesn't buy loyalty. No, it doesn't. It [00:55:30] buys you time. But you know, I mean, you really want to be paying somebody top dollar if they're not loyal to you or if they're not actually.
00:55:45 going through the motions. Sure. They might be doing a certain amount of work for you, but, you know, it's, it's the whole hearts and minds thing, and really that, that's all about, it's all about validation and it's all about acknowledgement and, and, and, and contribution.
00:56:00 know, um, I heard something a while back that was like the, the, the best way to get somebody connected to you is to have them do you a favor. Uh, you would think you'll do the other way around. You do them a favor and then they're connect. No, it's the other way around. You have them do you a favor and that, [00:56:15] that ties them to you.
00:56:30 there's self, you know, people can, can get self worth from that. And ultimately, in addition to, uh, in addition to money, in, in a way of, of living, this is [00:56:45] what we spend the majority of our waking hours doing every day.
00:56:57Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Amen. Yeah. Couldn't have said that better. I think
00:56:59Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: that's [00:57:00] the best advice. Come outta that. No, I, I totally, I mean that I, I've kind of beat on that horse until it's, it's dead quite a few times too, Jeff. I mean, and I, I totally agree.
00:57:15 us, and they, everybody wants to feel like their existence is for something. Mm-hmm. , everybody who wants to feel like, you know, whatever they're doing, whether it's vacuuming the floor, Cleaning up a cat accident on a chair. Mm-hmm. , [00:57:30] or making a sign like, Right, Like they wanna feel like what they're doing is contributing to the bigger picture.
00:57:45 and valued, and they want to feel like the work that they're putting in is having an effect on the bigger picture.
00:58:00 valid, not hear them, and not give them a platform or a forum to voice their ideas and concerns and opinions. Mm. And, and, and not genuinely listening to them and, and you know, running with, with what you hear.
00:58:15 I think that alone is what separates a good boss from a bad boss. I mean, if, if there was one thing I had to say that that really is the differentiator, it's, it's a boss's ability to treat their employees like human beings. Mm-hmm. and not
00:58:29Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: [00:58:30] cog in a wheel. Well and you know, it, it, it from a weird perspective too, and this is, you know, like we've talked so much about retention of employees, um, one of the things that you can do that will [00:58:45] actually tender the ones that you wanna keep is holding on too hard to the ones that shouldn't be there or don't wanna be there.
00:59:00 Again, it's, you know, the whole onboarding and hiring and recruiting process can be so cumbersome and so time consuming and so, so energy draining that you really don't wanna go through it unless you absolutely [00:59:15] have to.
00:59:30 know, But, but you know, you have to, you have to be willing to, to, to, again, you have to be willing to fail, right?
00:59:45 You have to be okay with that. You have and, and, and you have to let the rest of your staff know that you're okay with that. Yep. So that it, it's a, it's a, it's a living, breathing organism rather than [01:00:00] kind of this stagnant pond that you're, that that, that you could potentially create, you know?
01:00:05Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Yeah, totally. Say that again. You have to let them fail. Yeah. Everybody repeated with
01:00:10Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: me. You have to. Yeah. You have to let them, you have to let them fail
01:00:13Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: now. Now we're like [01:00:15] getting into like a seance. Yeah, I like it. Well, there's
01:00:18Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: a, there's an advertising agency here in, um, in Portland called Wyden Kennedy.
01:00:30 with the gist slogan in. They have a really amazing office here in Portland and they have this giant wall on it where they did this kind of art installation.
01:00:45 the words fail harder. Um, and it, it's a really, Sorry, I just got distract. Can we hold on a second?
01:00:50Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Mm-hmm.
01:00:54Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: So
01:00:55Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: it's the sign husband .
01:00:58Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Oh, sign husband. Oh,
01:00:59Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: he [01:01:00] makes an appearance . That's
01:01:03Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: great. That's fantastic. My,
01:01:07Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: my, my cat shit on the chair. That's why I had to get up and take her outta here. I'm like, I'm sitting here talking and I'm like smelling like, what is that awful [01:01:15] smell? And then she took a, the chair, it's like a common occurrence in my life.
01:01:21Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: a podcast episode until one of Mike's cat shit's on the chair. .
01:01:25Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: How many times has that happened now? At least three, I think. Uh, yeah. It used to happen all the [01:01:30] time when I was doing like shot box meetings too, and like she has a habit of walking across my desk and then she's, she's
01:01:35Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: dropped a few right on computer
01:01:40Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: She's an elderly cat with irritable bowel syndrome. It's, she keeps me. Okay. Um, uh, and [01:01:45] sorry about that. Anyway, um, there's a ad agency here in, um, in Portland and they have this big wall that says, Fail harder. And it's kind of like their, their mantra, like they're, they encourage everybody to take as many risks as they can, you know, creatively with clients, really push the [01:02:00] envelope and, and, and actually hope you fail.
01:02:15 that tries so hard to discourage failure. And they see, they see somebody making a mistake as, as a, I think, as a reflection on them as a business owner, but all of us are prone to making mistakes.
01:02:30 screw up stuff. You're not gonna do everything. Right. And, and none of us would be where we were if we hadn't learned from our mistakes that we made in the past. Mm-hmm. . But as a business owner, for some reason, it seems like there's just like this innate, like just disregard for for that like [01:02:45] universal truism that I'm allowed to fail, but because I'm paying you.
01:03:00 Whereas you should be encouraging them, like I said, to push the boundaries and step outside of their comfort zone. And they're probably gonna fall flat on their face the first couple times.
01:03:15 And, and without an environment that actively encourages failure to a point, I, people can only grow to a point. I mean, obviously there's a point where like, if you're just constantly doing the same thing over and over again and messing it up every time, like that's, that's different than [01:03:30] the failure I think that we're talking about here, right?
01:03:45 And figure it out and get a little better each time and improve then that, that type of failure is good and it's positive and it's, it's it's moving forward.
01:03:52Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Yeah. The, the, the failure thing requires, we were talking about with, with the training thing, just like that, with, with the, [01:04:00] with the failure thing. It requires the right kind of response and follow up to a failure. You know, some sort of, some sort of questioning and not, not an interrogation, you know, why did you do this [01:04:15] type thing, but you know what, what, what happened?
01:04:30 through the chain here, figure out reverse engineer this and think about how we could have done it differently and what, what might have been the better result, you know, as a result of doing that, that that's, that's key to it too.
01:04:45 Unbridled failure all over the place. , there, there has to be, there has to be some feedback loop in there. Right. And it has to be, it has to be done in the right tone and the right attitude and the right, uh, and the right approach. [01:05:00]
01:05:00Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Right. So I've got, I've got another question for you, Jeff, and then I, you know, maybe this will kind of bring us full circle and try to wrap this up, I guess.
01:05:15 the end of the, your relationship? And just to, to preface that, like, the reason I asked why you stuck around so long mm-hmm. was, I, I've noticed there's, of our listeners, there's a lot of smaller shops.
01:05:30 owner, maybe it's a, an owner and a couple employees, where at some point in time the owner was like, Hey, I'm gonna grow this business and I'm gonna bring somebody. Like you into the fold. Mm-hmm. and I, I say this because I, I [01:05:45] respect your knowledge base, your experience, um, you know, of all the conversations we've had mm-hmm.
01:06:00 years, obviously something worked there for a while. Mm-hmm. . But these other guys that I see that, hey, I taught this guy everything I know about the business.
01:06:15 now like that either that trust is gone or he is scared to try again, but the business is running him over still. Mm-hmm. , you know, five years later, 10 years later from that. So what was the, You're that guy, that promising number two [01:06:30] guy that mm-hmm.
01:06:38Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Yeah. Um, well I, I want to touch on one thing you said there for a second and Cause it's, it's applicable to my scenario. [01:06:45] Not everybody. Wants to be a business owner. Not everybody should be a business owner.
01:07:00 number two and early in my conversations with the owner of the company I worked for, there was discussion, very serious discussion about transitional plans, about eventually me being the per, you know, taking the business over from him, you [01:07:15] know, when it came time for him to retire and ways that we could have worked that out, you know, mechanically from a financial perspective, et cetera, et cetera.
01:07:30 business owner. And the bottom line is, I don't, you, you, you know, the, it, it takes a special breed. It takes a, I think first and foremost for me, the thing that I know that I don't have is the comfort with, uh, personal risk.[01:07:45]
01:08:00 and, you know, I, it, it's just, that was the, that was the thing for me. So it, it was never, for me, it was never a, a, a factor of getting, you know, building myself up, building my skill set to a point where I [01:08:15] felt like I could take what I'd learned and go start my own thing.
01:08:30 stopped being heard. We got to certain points where I was trying to work with the owner to make core changes on certain front end processes in how [01:08:45] the business was being run.
01:09:00 operational side of the business, we hit a wall in improving those processes because of how we were taking orders and how we were processing quotes and how we were bringing things [01:09:15] into the, into the shop.
01:09:30 gonna say inability. It's not, maybe not knowing, unwillingness, but at least an inability to make that change and to allow me to influence change there. And so at that point, I stopped being [01:09:45] valued. I stopped contributing and developing and growing, and I started to stagnate.
01:10:00 in the hospital to by myself to do nothing but self reflect. And then another three months on my couch on oxygen to. Be separated from the shop environment and think about how, you know, my work [01:10:15] life was going and how things were going there.
01:10:30 was not my choice. The business, you know, needs changed and, and, and I was let go. I didn't leave myself. Um, which was surprising. Uh, but, you know, I, I'd been, look, I've been looking for, for months, so it, it, it was inevitable, I think is [01:10:45] really at that point.
01:11:00 disconnected, how, how many, regardless of how many times I was told, Oh, you're so important.
01:11:15 I know we need to do this, but we're not doing it. What value am I bringing? Why am I here?
01:11:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: know, Boom. So that's, that's Jeff for everybody listening, that's Jeff dropping the truth on you right now. , if [01:11:30] you're a business owner and you've got team members that are, are valuable to your organization and you don't let them be heard or feel heard, or feel valued, they're gonna leave you. Mm-hmm.
01:11:45 the very least, they're gonna check out of work, and they're gonna go through the motions. And if you're not paying attention, you're not gonna notice it. And then, then they're gonna leave. Mm-hmm. , and you're gonna be in that six month cycle that we just [01:12:00] talked about all over again, or longer, especially if you're trying to replace an ops manager or somebody that has a ton of experience on how your entire operation
01:12:10Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: runs.
01:12:14Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: [01:12:15] No, not at all. None. Not at all. Wink,
01:12:20Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: wink. So
01:12:23Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: doesn't sound at all like you've
01:12:25Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: said that here, I've, I've caught you throwing some shade from time to [01:12:30] time. So ,
01:12:33Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: So, so Jeff, I, we started this conversation off and you said that you're in a, a position for the first time in a long time, where you can really sit back and think about where you want your career to go in the future, and you have a little [01:12:45] bit more control and say over that.
01:12:54Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: You know, um, I, I, I'm looking at things where I can be a little more [01:13:00] creative. Uh, there's so much opportunity and possibility within the sign industry itself. I've been in a box of architectural signage for so long and specifically, Signage for like high [01:13:15] rise office and, and hospitals.
01:13:30 little bit here and there, but, you know, ADA code and fire regulations and all that kinda stuff, really, you know, they, they really bring those walls in real tight.
01:13:45 right now, my options are pretty, I, I'm looking bigger organizations, you know, um, places where, uh, maybe they've got, uh, processes in place. They darn well better have processes in place, but places where I can come in and, and, and.
01:14:00 gonna be heard. That's the biggest thing. And I don't even care where it is. I mean, I'm, I'm looking, I'm looking into design stuff. I'm looking into project management stuff. I'm looking into operation stuff. I'm looking into department manager stuff, general manager stuff. Heck, I've even talked to a couple people about doing [01:14:15] sales.
01:14:30 Can, can my voice be heard? You know, and, and where can it be heard?
01:14:45 make a living, let's put it that way. I do live in California. So, uh, there's that factor. But yeah, it, it really is, It's, for me, it's about where can, where can my voice be heard? Where, where can I bring value? And that's what all of my conversations to this point have been [01:15:00] centered around.
01:15:15 you know, people ask me when I, when I, when I approach these sign shops, is, you know, what do you wanna do?
01:15:30 fill it. It's an interesting spot to be, honestly.
01:15:35Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: It's a difficult spot to be too, cause it's like, Employers don't know what to do with that . Well, like, it,
01:15:42Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: it requires, it's, it's a [01:15:45] different kind of conversation.
01:16:00 much different conversation. I've, I've literally been cold calling myself to, to the different sign companies around the area.
01:16:15 you know, 20 plus years, let's talk. And having, you know, our two hour, three hour conversations with business owners around. You know, what do you do? Where, [01:16:30] where are your, where are your, where are your challenges?
01:16:39Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Boom. Awesome. I wish you would move someplace cheaper like Iowa, because I'd, I'd love to have you as part [01:16:45] of my team, but I can't even come close to Ing . Yeah, Sorry man. If you ever move to the Midwest, lemme know
01:16:53Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Jeff. Always a pleasure, man. I always enjoy catching up.
01:17:00 Jeff for two and a half, three hours, , if you're looking for an impact guy, you've got a hold to fill.
01:17:09Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: it, it, it hit, hit up Jeff, Will it? ? Yeah. Hey, um, Praising . Um,
01:17:15 I don't how that with recruitment tool, but, Okay. Right on. Yeah. You, I appreciate Yeah. . Yeah.
01:17:24Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: next cease and desist letter.
01:17:26Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Another one. Another one coming. It never fails. [01:17:30] All right, guys. Um, let's wrap this one up. Right. Rapid fire takeaways. Peter,
01:17:37Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: you gotta, you gotta stop talking on an interview.
01:17:45 be the biggest takeaway. It's biggest takeaway for this episode, specifically for those that are asking about how do we, how could I hire the right people in order to hire the right people? You need to find the right people in order to find the right people.[01:18:00]
01:18:13Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: the sign. Timmy. Changa. . [01:18:15] No, I just like, it's got a ring to it, man.
01:18:21Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Sign. Does it? Can you hear yourself? I think that, um, the biggest takeaway for me is something that, that, that Jeff just [01:18:30] kind of got done seeing, and that, that is, this is a guy that's got as much experience in this industry, is anybody you're ever gonna encounter has, And he's in a way got a buffet of choices in front of him for where his career goes in front of him.
01:18:45 He doesn't care what he does, whether it's design, fabrication, installation, sales, or whatever it may be, whatever role that is, Jeff can do it. And he doesn't care. He wants to be in a role where he can contribute, he can move the needle, and his voice is heard, think, and [01:19:00] everybody needs to let that soak in that this, he, his experience doesn't matter.
01:19:15 everybody to, to really let that soak in. Mm-hmm. , a
01:19:18Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: hundred percent. Jeff, anything else
01:19:21Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: you wanna share? Oh, I think I've said enough.
01:19:30 advice and, and listen more and talk less right now.
01:19:34Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Perfect. Well, for me, um, yeah, Mike said it best man. Uh, employees want to be valued. They want to feel like they're part of the [01:19:45] organization.
01:20:00 special, uh, for us, younger generation. I, I, I'm, I don't even know why I say younger, like getting ready to turn 35.
01:20:14Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: moment. It doesn't [01:20:15] get better. Bryant, just, just so you know, it doesn't get better. ,
01:20:20Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: I. The next five years for you, or you're in for a world like those are the , 35 to 40 were the hardest for me. , [01:20:30] the aging that happens in that short amount of time is incredible.
01:20:33Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: look forward to meeting. I, I, I just turned 48 2 weeks ago, so Yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling a whole other level of mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . [01:20:45] Yeah. I
01:20:45Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: appreciate that. Yeah.
01:20:47Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. Absolutely. All right guys. Uh, great episode. If you would like to be a guest on the Better Sign Shop podcast, what do you do? Uh, you email, Hey, at better sign shop.com.
01:21:00 us out. Uh, what else do we have? What else are we supposed to say? Mike?
01:21:03Michael Riley: #de4a1d;">Michael Riley: Uh, join the Facebook group and join the Mastermind group. Yeah, it's worth your time. Yeah. If you're a
01:21:08Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: sign shop owner, check out our Better Sign Shop community. It is a private, safe space. We [01:21:15] screen everybody for ownership, so it's just owners there.
01:21:30 Thanks for listening to us ramble on.
01:21:31Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: Awesome. We appreciate you. Thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Take it easy.
01:21:37Peter Kourounis: #583e31;">Peter Kourounis: All right guys,
01:21:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: we'll see.
01:21:40Jeff Sherman: #72b372;">Jeff Sherman: If you liked this episode, make sure you hit subscribe to get all the latest episodes and [01:21:45] check out our website, better sign shop.com.
01:22:00 listening.