I'm happy to introduce you guys to Dylan Martin. Super cool, super knowledgeable, super salesman. In a past life, he worked together with Michael Riley. And don't let the line in his bio about "medium size custom manufacturer" mislead you, Security Signs is a serious outfit in Portland.

I'm really looking forward to this one as "sales" always tends to get a bad rap, but it's critical to your success as a shop owner. -Bryant

Q: How should I approach finding AND hiring an outside sales rep to help grow my shop?

I guess it depends on the role of a salesperson at your company. Are they able to bring in clients and hand them off for the consultation? Do they direct the consulting? Do they also manage the project after it’s sold? You may not be looking for a “salesperson” at all, but rather a project manager type with rapport development skills. If you have "inside" and "outside" salespeople, then the dynamics are much different than an account manager who handles new leads and develops them into sold jobs. Quantifying how much value an outside salesperson brings your organization can be difficult, because they're not actually closing the deal. The key for an outside salesperson will be to learn what product your company is excellent at providing, and what they are not. I would use a recruiting service for hiring an outside salesperson for sure. They will spend time with you to narrowly tailor your needs and do all the hard work weeding out candidates.

Q: Do you find it's easier or better to hire a seasoned sign salesperson, or hire someone with a proven sales track record but no industry experience?

Guess it matters whether you’re able to train them. Do you have a proven way of training salespeople? Do you have capacity to train them? Can you absorb their mistakes when they make them? If not, then you will want to find someone with experience. For experienced sales industry salespeople, you’ll want to find people who are adaptable, capable, and willing to change the way they’ve always done things. A successful salesperson within the industry who has recently relocated from outside the area, for example, may be a good fit. But beware, there are a lot of “seasoned” turds out there, and you don’t want to bring one into your organization and potentially cause a bunch of chaos. Getting rid of cancerous people is difficult and costly, better to weed them out in advance. So approach hiring salespeople like you approach selling to potential customers, qualify, qualify, qualify. If your qualification skills are weak, you need to reprioritize your schedule to focus time each day to developing STRONG qualification skills.

Q: In your opinion, what's the best compensation structure to attract and retain top tier sales talent?

When are you paying commission to your salespeople? When the job sells and you collect deposit or a contract? Or, after the job bills and the client is ready to make final payment? These questions are pivotal in determining how much and what mix you should pay your salespeople.

I’ve found that new salespeople need a different structure than those with experience, specifically experience working with your particular organization. I would start someone off with a more generous salary, and smaller commission rate when they are new. They’re going to need time to develop clients and win some deals. Sales cycles in our industry can last months, if not years. After someone has been with our company for a year or so, we’ll reduce their salary and increase their commission. I also use higher commission rates for certain types of jobs that typically bring higher margin or require more risk from salespeople.

I favor paying “hunters” more commission and less salary, and “farmers” more salary, less commission. Both are important to your organization, and you likely have a mix. Order taking does not require much sales acumen, but order takers that generate additional sales, or “upsell” clients, often have a certain skill set that is valuable and often have a loyal customer base that is less likely to beat your estimator up on pricing. I do not like draw payment plans, they show very little faith in this new person that you just spent a lot of time and money to hire. If you hired the right type of individual, they’re going to require investment by you and your firm.

Salespeople are not paid to work. Let me say that again, salespeople are not paid to work. Salespeople are paid to PRODUCE.

Q: Is it worth investing time in bidding on large open-bid signage projects, or am I better off pursuing non-bid projects?

This is a great question. The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. It really depends on your company goals, ability to project manage, role of the salesperson, and expected profit margins. It also really depends on how much risk your company is willing to take. Bid projects bring more unknowns, thus more risk. They also often bring more change orders, because of lack of provided information on the bid documents. Some companies survive on this scenario. So, one strategy would be to offset risk by bidding the lowest cost option that meets the requirements, then present examples to the client of what they’re actually getting. Often times, the client will up-sell themselves. Salespeople who make their living chasing widely bid projects, are not really salespeople in my opinion. Their farmers who have learned to source opportunities. They’re not building client base, meaningful relationships, or increasing your profit margins.

Q: Any tips for managing a larger sales team and distributing leads equitably?

I distribute warm leads to the salesperson I think will be the best fit and have the best capacity for making it a win. Win for the client, win for the company, win for the salesperson. The front desk has a rotation priority list for call-in inquiries that I update monthly depending on capacity. We like to get potential customers to warm voices on the phone versus voicemail if we can help it.

I've been a part of organizations where the sales manager took all the sweet deals and passed out the crumbs to the rest of the team. Nothing will develop resentment and harm your sales organization faster than this type of behavior. Salespeople have an primal sense of fairness, sometimes overly sensitive to what they perceive as inequity, so I do my best to discuss lead opportunities fairly, and resolve conflicts quickly.

Q: Sales and marketing are two different things, but go hand in hand. How can a sales team and a marketing department better work together to drive more leads?

If you are fortunate enough to have a separate marketing department (one that actually has a budget and mission 😉), then I would recommend marketing sits down with sales at least once per month. They should discuss what the most successful projects, coolest projects, and collect the stories for each of those. Then, marketing can use those as a showcase on social media, and target client emails. Marketing can gain insight on project types that are ideal, and promote those. Sales should also assist in website content and creation. this is really a symbiotic relationship. Leads are often generated from the efforts of the marketing department, and salespeople often have the best insight to assist marketing in developing targets. Now, you should ask me how sales and designers can best work together, since that is a more daily interaction.

Q: What has been the most effective method of generating new leads in your experience?

Happy Customers, hands down!

Typically, each major city has a record database for recently issued or pending development permits. Salespeople looking to expand their base and create new opportunities should learn how to navigate that database and source pertinent contacts and information, then follow up with a targeted approach. The approach should be customer focused, what's in it for the customer?

Q: I'm thinking about joining a networking group. What's your opinion on these groups, and are some better than others?

That’s a topic that comes up a lot, and the quick answer is, that the perfect group is one filled with other like minded hungry individuals that have something to gain by being a part of the group, and provide value through their efforts. The problem that we have as sign salespeople, is that we’re usually late to the party, because signs happen later in the process for most projects; and plumbers aren’t real interested in a business that’s changing names or has most of the project completed by the time you start working on it.

However, we have found value with groups that deal in real estate, architecture, and design. You may need to participate in more than one, but make sure you can participate actively and provide value to the group. Keys: Notes must be taken by assigned individuals, information must be available on a shared platform, and members must be accountable for following up publicly within the group. Joining civic groups works, if you’re dedicated to the cause, otherwise it’s a horrible source for leads. Common people serving a common interest, will inevitably connect and share stories about their area of expertise.

There is also some value in participating with groups of project managers and facilities people. You won’t have “leads” to share with them, but they’re looking for trustworthy, accountable, and accessible partners to help them get their stuff taken care of. In that case, you want to be a resource. Give value to these people, they move around often, and will take you with them if they enjoy working with you, or if you saved their bacon on some projects. Things like code checks, information about rebates, design services, expedited job solutions, value engineering, are all ways to endear yourself to someone in that type of position.

I have not found value in paid lead groups, chamber of commerce, or other groups where most of the members are focused on selling to other members of the group.

The easy answer is a sales manager that does the onboarding and training for you. 😊

But this is a question I found myself up against when I first became sales manager at Security Signs. Before then, I was just a successful salesperson. We did not have a manual for training salespeople, so I started to develop my own ad hoc. When I got into the sign industry in 2000, digital cameras were still very new technology. Designs were largely still not emailed to clients, they were printed and presented in person. There was a lot of face-to-face selling. So, I developed my techniques and adjusted them as the times, and technology, changed. My mentor in the sign industry, Jim Christensen (YESCO), shared with me the “holy grail” of sign sales training, developed by Dan O’Leary (Ad Art) in the 70’s. While it had lots of great advice, most of the techniques are out of date now. What I found most valuable was putting together a book of recent projects and categorized it by sign type. That’s why I laughed when I read your group’s thread about when to use the term “monument sign.” I classify monuments, pylons, directionals, pole signs, etc. as Freestanding Signs. I then clarify pole mount, double pole mount, pole cover, no pole cover, monument base, and so forth. Freestanding signs require a footing of some type, and typically require utilities locate prior to dig, unless they’re hand dug in shallow foundation. Thus, there should be a process to follow when surveying and completing freestanding sign projects. So, you could choose the most common signs sold in your market, like FCO letters, then break it down by material used, and mounting methods used depending on material type and size. The categorized photo/examples book will not only help guide your salespeople, but it can also be used as a tool to create a type of “menu pricing” for clients. Examples of similar projects and cost associated with that project.

Another great training tool is having potential salespeople start in light admin or support positions, then work them into full sales roles. This is difficult if you have a small shop, but still need sales help. I totally get it, but I started by answering phones and writing service tickets. Then, I would get the notes from the techs/install people, and they would help me to understand how to convey that to the client. After 4 months, I was dropping out of law school and heading up the service sales at YESCO Portland, within a year I was in full-time sales.

I’m also a big proponent of sales shadowing. I would not let an inexperienced rep out in the field without doing at least 30 days of close shadowing. That means the rep goes with the experienced sales rep or manager, meets with clients, holds the tape measure, takes photos, etc. I used to make mistakes on purpose and leave things out that were critical, then explain why it was important to get that information. I could then send the sales trainee back out to the site to gather that information. My hope is that the experience would be more concrete than any discussion or written document.

We use an initial site survey form for most of our new sales trainees, but I have veterans who still go back and use the tool, especially if they’re on a job out of town or that requires travel. Nobody wants to go back to a site that requires 3 hours of travel time (one-way). This goes back to my recommendation for having sign categories and how to approach each project type.

Q: I have had an extremely difficult time hiring salespeople. I have tried everything from straight commission at a really high percentage to a salary plus commission & expenses. None of it has led to a reliable trustworthy salesperson. Any tips/advice would be helpful.

You want to find A players who require little to no supervision, are highly motivated, trustworthy, loyal, and success driven, but at this point you’ll settle for a C player with a pulse who’s not insulting on the phone. Sound about right? Look, the perfect employee doesn’t exist, but there are plenty of A players out there in the market. You’re better off identifying the major traits you want in your salespeople based on their function at your company. In my experience, great salespeople have 4-5 basic strengths that allow them to be great salespeople, especially in this business.

Finding A players will require you to ask the right questions (qualify) and they shouldn’t be direct questions like, “Are you a self-starter?” Questions should be more in the realm of, “Tell me how you set goals and organize your day to maximize your effectiveness.” Then you should have them give you an example. I can go into more depth on this later.

Find GREAT people and incentivize them well. Big salaries are not always a good motivator. Structured commissions and tiered bonuses are far more effective, especially for seasoned salespeople. Indeed is a great platform, but you need to spend time developing a job posting that flushes out the traits that you want in a salesperson. Instead of listing the traits you are looking for directly, ask potential candidates to answer questions in response to the job posting. They can be submitted with their resumes. I am also a proponent of recruiters, or job placement specialists. They will spend some time with you to see what your company needs and values, then attempt to place the right person.

All that being said, former collegiate athletes, military personnel, and people with families are often top of my list. Athletes and military people know how to be on time, generally have great work ethic, and love to win! People with families have obligations at home they need to get to, and people they need to provide for, so they often effectively use their time and are motivated to earn.

Emmerson originally coined the phrase, but David Lee Roth simplified it, “Those who know how will always work for those who know why.” If you’re running a sales organization, you must know what your “Why” is and be able to convey that to your salespeople and other employees. You sharing the “Why” will bring alignment to your organization and particularly within your sales staff. This is your bullpen, you need to make sure they’re hungry and motivated. Salespeople seek praise just as much, if not more, than they seek monetary reward. Invest in training seminars, get excited with them, show gratitude, and celebrate their victories. Subsequently, use errors and failures as learning opportunities versus an opportunity to beat them down. Try to find the lesson in the failure, keep it specific to that incident, unless it’s a reoccurring theme for the individual.

Q: It's not uncommon for new incoming leads to "have their hair on fire" demanding unrealistic lead times or believing they absolutely must have their job delivered by what's really an arbitrary date. How do you triage those leads and empower your sales reps to suss out who legitimately needs faster service and who doesn't? And how do you tell that potential customer to wait their turn in line?

No, you don't say. Duh, they're the most important person in the world and don't need to hear your excuses of why you can't drop everything and make their lives better so that they can get back to their podcast or Netflix series. This industry would be awesome if it weren't for the clients. 🤣

Like with everything, I try to slow them down, figure out what is necessary for now, and assist if I can make it happen quickly. Then we talk about what items will take longer. If they're not willing to have that conversation and work on a reasonable solution, they may not be a reasonable person, and likely will not appreciate the extra efforts and work you're doing for them. And shocker, they'll come back and do it again to you, especially if you rocked it for them.

This is a popular question and topic of debate, especially among salespeople. 😉 Dedicated project managers are ideal, but only if they're sharp and in sync with company goals. They can't become puppets of the sales team. Smaller firms will find that the salesperson functioning also as the PM is a necessity, and it's rational for sign shop owners to expect their salespeople to understand the project goals, the product sold, and be able to keep the client informed. However, it gets pretty taxing on salespeople to manage every little detail of a project from cradle to grave and keep up on new opportunities. The details start to get muddy, corners get cut, and mistakes happen. I recommend playing to the strengths of your team and organization. You have to know the "why" as mentioned previously, and share those goals and purpose with your team, especially the sales folks. If you're going to ask salespeople to manage the projects, you should PAY THEM MORE! They're doing the work, why not? But remember, salespeople don't get paid to work, they get paid to win!

Q: What's the biggest mistake you've made as a salesperson? What lesson did you learn from it?

The biggest mistakes are always not actively listening, which leads to poor qualification (poor questions), and not trusting my spidey-sense. If something seems off, or unfruitful, it probably will be. Over promising and under delivering is also a mortal sin in any sales position. I learn a little bit more each time, and fine tune my skills. I ask a lot more questions, and am more skeptical of people who want to suck my time, and charge for design/consultation services. Our value as salespeople is really our own intellectual property, our experiences, our approach to solving problems. There are plenty of “sign companies,” but there are very few “value companies”

Q: Follow up - what's your process for charging for design and consultation? How do you overcome objections to that? I think in this industry potential customers are primed to expect that stuff for free, so I'm curious how you approach it. I assume just Security Sign's reputation and weight in the industry helps, but for smaller shops without that sort of clout, how could they approach that without driving away sales?

Until we start charging as an industry, the customer's expectations won't change. If your designers produce excellent work, it certainly makes it easier to justify. I have found that a clear breakout of the services, along with an allocated number of hours for each task helps the client to understand. Ultimately, companies who are going to give designs away as a value forward strategy, should remove as much of the details from the design and convert the vectorized pdf to a jpeg, preventing a straight import of line artwork for competitors. Lack of details, even measurements, also makes it difficult for clients to steal. At some point, I figure if that's the type of client they are, I'm likely to have issues with other parts of the project, lile collecting final payment.

Q: I'm the owner of a smaller shop and I do a lot of the "sales" – but I'm also wearing other hats as well. When I'm in sales mode, how should I spend the limited time I have ?

Oh man, how many people in this group identify with this question? I bet there a lot in the industry that do. I've got a ton of questions to qualify my answer, but I'll refrain and keep it simple. If the owner is also the best salesperson, or top salesperson, then they need to stop thinking of their sign company as a "sign manufacturer." They're in the "sales" business, and they need to take care of revenue first and make it a priority. Hire someone else to manage the business side of affairs, they're easier to find than great salespeople who understand the industry. If you must balance your time, like our owner does, and like I do, then you better get organized and schedule everything you do. Carve out time on your schedule every day to address your sales activities. That means turning off the phone, email, etc. Alternatively, if you're better at managing and running the business, limit your sales activity to just the accounts that are a MUST DO BUSINESS WITH THE OWNER types, and trust your salespeople to handle the rest.

Q: It's not all the time, but it's a fairly common occurrence that we're missing some necessary info when we get to the design step after a job has been sold. It's causing mistakes and lost time. Design is quick to blame the sales team, the sales rep thinks that it's a design or PM problem. As a sales manager, how would approach solving the problem here?

At the end of the day, the account rep is responsible to their client to make sure that their expectations are met. This means proofing the design details, not just the pretty picture. That's the job if you consider yourself a true consultant. That said, there should be no tighter relationship within the company than salesperson and designer. They're a combo and often cannot exist without each other. I use the hunter and chef analogy. Without the hunter, the chef is cooking leftovers. Without the chef, the hunter is eating raw meat. Neither option is optimal. As a hunter, however, I'm going to let the chef know how I like my food prepared. I'll accept suggestions, especially if I trust the chef. Fixing the relationship, usually allows the individuals to respect each other enough to learn what is necessary and what is not. Design should ask for what they think they need to make it a successful project, but also accept the salesperson's guidance if told that it's not necessary at the time, or that they will fill in certain details later. But, then the salesperson must do that. Production is a whole other issue, and they will always be detail driven, so eventually someone has to answer the questions.

Q: What software, tools, apps, etc., do you think are critical for a successful salesperson or sales team?

Whatever software you and your team is willing to use, and meets the needs of your organization. I've seen it go horrible, and I've seen it work effectively (although not without some pain during the "growing" process). I like tools that help me stay organized with my projects and clients. I like simple. I like intuitive, logical, and something that ultimately saves me time, or saves me money.

I think there are some simple tools that get overlooked. Get a small digital camera with at least a 4x optical zoom and high megapixel count, using your phone for surveys is a mistake. You can operate a camera with one hand, the other hand holds the __________? Tape measure, correct! I write down the measurements, but can often skip that step if I take photos of the measurements. I want to be honest here, I may be the first person in our industry to use and perfect that skill. I used a digital camera that recorded to 3.5" floppy disks for reference. 😁

Your phone can be great for apps that assist with paint color match in the field, and of course all of the apps that connect you to your primary functioning software. ERP software is valuable, if you can find one that functions and that your people will migrate towards.

Q: Any tips for setting sales goals for yourself or a sales team? What metrics do you track those goals?

Having a CRM system to measure progress is absolutely essential for any sales team more than 3, but can be helpful to even the one-man show. There are some really simple ones available. I discuss revenue goals with ownership twice a year. We set the goals based on a myriad of influences, but often consider the economy, and what we see coming from industry indicators like architect/broker/developer activity. Architects are the canary in the coal mine. I like to set goals that are attainable, but require individuals to push a little. When you have a team, there will always be those who miss the target and those who exceed the target. The goal is to not always have the same people exceeding their target. That means you're setting performer's target too low and under performer's target too low. If you have someone who consistently underperforms, get rid of them and strengthen the team.

One tip I have in regards to setting sales goals is for managers and salespeople alike. Set your annual revenue goal, then break it down into what you need to sell per week, month and quarter. Keep the weekly totals running in a live Excel based document. This will help you to know your average, and whether your team is on track to meet annual goals. No one likes to be surprised. You'll often see trends before it's too late to adjust and you can look for opportunities to fill or exceed revenue forecasts.

Oh, and I use design request, estimate requests, and lead activity status as metrics for knowing what's coming up and the likelihood of closure, sorry, should have led with that.

Q: We've all heard "your price is too high" from potential customers when we present our quote to them. How do you overcome those objections to your price to reinforce your value in the customer's mind?

Really? You've heard that from clients before? 😄

Hey, the price objection is not exclusive to our industry, it affects most, and especially affects industries that don't sell commonly traded commodities. I find that if the salesperson is qualifying the client well, there will be fewer surprises and objections. I like questions and examples. I will always ask if they have purchased a sign before. Then I will ask if they have purchased the type of sign they are currently seeking. I will ask them who did that project. Then follow up with whether it was a good experience. What went wrong? What went right? Why are you talking to me? Great questions will give you all the answers the client isn't willing or understanding to share with you.

Q: What's your preferred method for customer intake and customer information gathering? What information do you look for to determine the quality of a potential customer or lead? How does that information affect your sales approach with them?

As stated before, I like to use questions, especially qualification questions that lead to more questions, and thus more information. I treat customer intake like an interview. I want to see if we're a good fit for them, and if they're a good fit for us. Remember, the sales process is a conversation, not a one-way street. I don't subscribe to the "find the pain" method entirely, but I do like to "find the need." What is the customer unwilling or unable to explain to me? How can I uncover what they really want? They may be asking me for a set of red channel letters that reads TERYAKI, but they may discover thru our process that they make more money on their to go orders, and that somehow needs to be a part of their advertising campaign.

If you're in this business, you're selling advertising, or your selling wayfinding/informational. It's better to sell advertising and get your clients to understand it as that. It's optimal to do both. If you have the option, sell to the Marketing Department, they have more money than Facilities, and their budget has less scrutiny.

Appendix

Dylan’s Bio

Security Signs is a medium size custom manufacturer with full install capabilities -- three crane trucks, multiple large bucket trucks, and all journeyman installers. Security Signs is almost 100yrs old and serves the Portland/Vancouver Metro area primarily, but regularly travels within the Northwest to complete projects.

Dylan is a results-oriented individual, with a conscientious commitment to quality, integrity, and value. As Sales Manager, he works diligently to ensure these same values permeate throughout the organization. He is a four-time recipient of Security Signs’ coveted Account Manager of the Year award, celebrating the company’s most successful Account Manager. He is also a multi-million-dollar producer with over twenty years in the sign industry.

Dylan creates a collaborative environment for his clients and believes that his first duty is to empower and educate his clients, allowing them to make the best decisions for their needs. He is uniquely experienced at guiding clients thru the design/build process, ensuring completion deadlines, budgets, and finish quality exceed customer expectations.

Dylan earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Oregon, “GO DUCKS!” In his spare time, he enjoys spending time with his kids, outdoor recreational activities, and struggling horribly on the golf course.

Sign Sales Expert - Ask Me Anything