Getting on the Right Track // Joe Arenella - Signtracker / Better Sign Shop

00:00:00joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, [00:00:15] workflow, growth, and more. You are listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter COIs, Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.[00:00:30]

00:00:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Before we jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout out to our sponsor, GCI Digital Imaging Grand [00:00:45] Format Printer to the Trade. We talk a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of having a. Good partners and gci Digital Imaging is a good partner to have owner TJ bak and his team focus on providing [00:01:00] killer customer service just the way grandmother used to make it.

00:01:15 looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, wraps, and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.[00:01:30]

00:01:40joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: H

00:01:40Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: How are you being? What's going on? How are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's been a [00:01:45] minute.

00:01:45joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Happy to be back. It

00:01:47Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: has been a minute. I don't know where Mr. Sign Design Samurai is, but I feel like he'll be popping in any moment now while we wait for him.

00:02:00 for a minute, Pete, how you been?

00:02:04joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Very busy. Very busy.

00:02:06Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Um, working on some projects, working on growing sign shop businesses. We're working on developing. [00:02:15] Honestly, the biggest development for here today is I've been, I finally jumped

00:02:19joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: on the chat, G p t train.

00:02:23Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: I've been having fun with it all Afternoon. The Apple iPhone just down just came out with an app, or maybe recently, I don't know if [00:02:30] it was just like today, but I got, I was scrolling through my social media early this morning.

00:02:45 Now you just woke me up and he's sitting in my bed. We're watching cartoons this morning, and I'm like scrolling through my social, my Twitter feed, and I come across this thing that says Apple Chat, G P T, iPhone app.

00:03:00 download it. It was like 30 seconds and it's on my phone. I'm like, what can this thing do? What can this thing do? Now, there's a lot of us. There's a lot of us that have not used this. So this today, effectively today, which you know is like May 19th in the morning.

00:03:15 listening to this, probably be like a couple of weeks

00:03:17joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: ago listening to this and this morning, and I'm like,

00:03:22Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: all right, I'm gonna send some emails. I wanna see how good this thing can be. Ooh, [00:03:30] scary man. So I go, the first thing that I do is following up with a sign shop owner, letting them know that we need to reschedule for next week, and that, I'm sorry, and there's like, uh, a.

00:03:43joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: I suggested some dates. [00:03:45] I typed out this like two sentence thing and it gave me like three

00:03:50Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: paragraphs worth of information, and I'm like, this is the best well-written email I've ever had. Copy, paste, [00:04:00] send it off to the owner at like 5 30, 5 45 in the morning. Like, all right, what else can this thing do?

00:04:08Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: let's send the, yeah, dude, don't ruin, don't ruin the AI episode. So like two weeks from now, [00:04:15] like we're doing this AI episode, uh, and, and it's changed so much since the last time that I was like, okay, here is why we need to do this. And it's blowing my mind, but I'll give you one tip, like if you like the, if you're using [00:04:30] that, do like, Use a friendly but professional tone or like speak like you are talking to your best friend or something like that.

00:04:45 it's, it's virtually indistinguishable from something that I would write, so. Well, no, I mean, I, I've got like a little flavor that I add to

00:04:54Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Well, I, I guess, I guess I don't wanna take the win from ourselves on that upcoming episode, but I was just blown away [00:05:00] by this.

00:05:15 that you love

00:05:15joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: her?

00:05:16Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Uh, I How do you quit a job that you really enjoy?

00:05:30 websites. It's helped me write product descriptions. I mean, again, don't want to take the wind from the sales of that episode, but

00:05:38Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: just don't do,

00:05:39Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: it's mind blowing though. So that's, that's, that's, that's what's on my mind here today.

00:05:44Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Well, cool. [00:05:45] Yeah, I've, I've got like some things I wanted to talk about, but I'm gonna wait until we get our guest on. Uh, today. I'm really excited for this. We had this guy on, on our shop management software demo series, and we enjoyed [00:06:00] that call so much that we said, Hey, let's get him on to the podcast, because I think his story is, is pretty cool and it's, I got like a lot of weird kind of experiences that, that you and I kind of have of like, [00:06:15] being in the industry as a, you know, an owner or manager or, or working that side of it and then working on the software side of it as well.

00:06:30 sign Tracker. I'm excited for this one. All right guys. Welcome back. We've got our guest, Joe Ella from Sign Tracker. Joe, super excited to have you. Thanks for coming on.

00:06:40joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Well, thank you guys. I appreciate it. I'm excited too. Hopefully, uh, you know, hopefully I can, [00:06:45] you know, impart a little bit of wisdom.

00:06:48Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I was, I was just telling Pete before you jumped on that, like you've got kind of the, a little bit of the same slice of the industry that we do. Mm-hmm. Like being on the, like, running a shop [00:07:00] for a long time, and then also being on the software side of it, actually making software for sign makers.

00:07:13joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Pete. Well, thanks. Why, why don't you kick us [00:07:15] off?

00:07:15Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Yeah. So I got a laundry list of questions to ask you, so I'm gonna tee you up really nicely. Okay. And start you, and start you with an easy one. All right.

00:07:24joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: At what point did you

00:07:25Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: realize and how more likely, how, how did you realize [00:07:30] that a software like Sign Tracker was needed in this

00:07:33joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: industry?

00:07:45 so I, you know, I, I came from another sign shop. I actually, I have, my background is not the sign industry at all. Like so many people. I stumbled into it, you know, I actually answered an ad in a newspaper that said Mar uh, uh, 60 to [00:08:00] $90,000 a year in, uh, marketing sales.

00:08:15 shop. And I had no idea what it was all about. I didn't know anything about science, but I took the job cause I had nothing else going on.

00:08:30 96 I think. And so we had one sh one shared computer. So I would stay there at night building forms cuz I did own a small business in California. So I was sort of, you know, I like to organize, you know, work, I like to organize people to [00:08:45] get jobs done.

00:08:57Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: was the, that was the impetus [00:09:00] of like, you, were you just like, you were in their shop and you're like, Hey, these guys aren't doing this right at all.

00:09:08joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: myself now, or like Yep. So I, cuz I was, I was building like all my own Excel and Word document forms to organize the [00:09:15] workflow. I was trying to talk to the shop foreman about, you know, setting up different, you know, uh, you know, forms to help get different sign types through the shop and all that.

00:09:30 Sytech International, which is a clueless on how to even begin. But I did take, I did take one of their head sales guys with me. So, and we were, you know, we were in signs of the Times Magazine looking on the back, trying to find wholesalers, you know, to build signs for us.

00:09:45 But then it kind of, you know, then it began, right? So we, we had a couple of national accounts. We were using a wholesale, local wholesale manufacturer to build all our assigns for us. And then I, again, I was building forms, building systems, all Excel, all access. And then I [00:10:00] started sending these forms out, like work orders, survey, work orders, all this stuff.

00:10:15 I buy 'em? And that's the word started. So that was the begin. The birth of sign tracker,

00:10:22Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: just like Excel and Microsoft Word forms

00:10:26joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: pretty much.

00:10:30 like flow charts and org charts and I mean, all you know. Then I, I actually packaged it all together with like employee handbooks and safety manuals and all this. And then started, I think I was telling you guys earlier, the first [00:10:45] iteration of Sign Tracker was a disc, an 80 page training manual.

00:11:00 and I sold 600 of 'em, went, sold like 600 of 'em. And, uh, but it looked like I was saying earlier, you know, within a few months I was getting phone calls constantly, like, Hey Joe.

00:11:15 So anyway. Mm. Uh, but I did that, I did it for a few years and then sort of pulled back and focused on my own business. And after I sold my sign shop, then I, that's when I started trying to think about how to, you know, do sign tracker full-time and make it a real software.[00:11:30]

00:11:31Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: what was the, like, what was the next iteration, right? We've got the CD ROMs. Yeah. Like the, the America Online. Like, here's the packet for this. Like what was, what was the next iteration? [00:11:45] Well,

00:11:45joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: when I, when I, what happened was I, our sign shop, um, we were really lucky, right? Like we were in a great spot. I was here in Austin, Texas.

00:12:00 actually. Austin's still

00:12:00Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: born No, no, I was gonna say, yeah, but you were in before that it was like too expensive to actually buy a house. Don't,

00:12:06joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: yeah. Now it's, yeah, it's ridiculous. Uh, so. What happened was, um, I pulled back, you know, I pulled back on, on sign tracker [00:12:15] and you know, the business was really blowing up.

00:12:30 then, plus we were the go-to company in Austin for pylon signs and fin.

00:12:45 it was terrible. You know, and a lot of big sign shops kind of tanked during that time, like really big electric sign shops. They were just going down, you know.

00:13:00 shop, and they were like a 300 million electrical contracting company. And so they were searching for software on, you know, how to manage a sign shop. And they, cuz they did service work, right? They did electrical service, electrical [00:13:15] install.

00:13:30 interwebs, you know, but somehow they still found this sign tracker thing.

00:13:45 have some of these things if you guys want it, you know, it's fine. And so they came to the shop and what happened was, at the same time our, the banks were like cutting our lines of credit.

00:14:00 You guys are young, so May maybe you weren't in the same business then. Well, I,

00:14:03Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: I think that was Pete's Was that like your first year in business, Pete? Second

00:14:07joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: year. Second year. And you survived. Good for you. It was tough and, um, I mean, what happened was they, uh, [00:14:15] you know, they came and toured the shop and at that time, you know, like I said, we were doing the Dallas Cowboy Stadium.

00:14:30 them how to use this Excel version of Sign Tracker. And halfway through the presentation, the c e o of the company just stops and puts his hand on my shoulder and says, okay, we've seen enough.

00:14:45

00:15:00 worked for them. And from 2008 to March of 2009, the company went from, you know, between 10, 11 million to 4 million.

00:15:13Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: of blowback on you [00:15:15] because of it? Oh yeah.

00:15:16joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Yeah. There was a lot. Like, I mean, yeah, there was, uh, and, and you know, I don't not blame 'em, right? Like they, they spent a lot of money, you know, and so, and I, I had an employment agreement with them for five [00:15:30] years, but after a year I was like, Hey, why don't you buy me out of this?

00:15:45 much the deal was I didn't have to have an NDA or whatever, so I left. And that's when I started the ne I said, okay, let's see if I can breathe life back into this sign tracker thing.

00:16:00 me. And, uh, after spending, I mean, it's almost embarrassing to say this cuz I didn't really know what I was doing, but I spent like 150 grand pretty quick. And, and in today's day with software development, that's nothing. Right? But back then, you know, my and [00:16:15] my wife, she was, she put the kibosh on that, you know, she's like, you, you need to go get a job.

00:16:30 Southwest, cuz here that happens in Austin. So I went to a seminar on, uh, how to build software as a service. And so I go to this thing and I'm sitting in there and it's the guy that had founded Fresh Books that's given the talk.

00:16:45 and so really cool dude. I ended up talking to him afterwards for a while and he would just said to me, he goes, Joe, look, He goes, right now you have, you have a hundred percent of nothing. He goes, so why don't you find a couple of developer guys? So what? Give up half the company, at least you'll have half of something.

00:17:00 So I found a couple of developers and we've been in business together ever since. They're great guys. And we all kept, I went back to work in the sign industry and uh, and we just slowly but surely started developing sign tracker just as a side project. [00:17:15] And then about five years ago we went full-time. So that's the sign tracker story.

00:17:20Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Absolutely stunning and fascinating. I, I, second question from me before, I'll, I'm gonna be selfish and ask two before Brian asks one. Okay. Okay. To this [00:17:30] day, what is your favorite feature about

00:17:33joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Sign Tracker? I would say I really like the job flow board. I like the visual, which I know, you know, Trello and there's a lot of different job flow boards out there, but I, I think, um, For me, I [00:17:45] really like the job flow board, the ability to visually organize all my jobs.

00:18:00 job folder, be able to do everything and have everything in one place rather than piles of paper and whiteboards and all that stuff. So I think, yeah, just having the jobs in one place visually where you can see them all is probably my favorite.

00:18:12Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: half of our listeners right now, if not the [00:18:15] majority of them, are probably like, yep, that's ama, that's such a simple feature and thank you so much for creating that and simplifying our lives.

00:18:25Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Ah, this is a, this is the bread and butter, like the job flow. Like, if you can't get that [00:18:30] right, Yeah. Hey.

00:18:45 series with us and mm-hmm. You know, we walked away from that impressed of just like, h how close it was to the, how a assigned person thinks.

00:19:00 board, like everything starts here, ends up over there and it's mm-hmm. Like, it just fits the mental model for, I, I think a ton of side guys. Yeah. And

00:19:09joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: gals. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then, and then to be able to, you know, at [00:19:15] any point click into one of those cards on the board and have everything there.

00:19:30 project management time searching for like, where the hell is that permit? Where, you know, and it's, it's so nice to have everything in one place.

00:19:41Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: You got another one, Peter,

00:19:42Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: or no? You're good. Oh, I got, I got, I got so many [00:19:45] more. So many more. I just want, I don't wanna be rude. I don't wanna take the win from your sales. Uh,

00:19:51Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: so I like, my question would probably be on the sign tracker side, like what were the biggest takeaways from [00:20:00] like your days of running the sign shop that you incorporated into sign tracker?

00:20:14joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: [00:20:15] Yeah, I was originally, that was the thing, right? So originally when I started and before I brought, you know, before I joined, uh, you know, brought on a couple of partners and all that, I had this whole thing designed out, you know, in, [00:20:30] I mean all the ui, all the stuff, you know, I, because I'm a very visual person and originally it was my thought was, oh, every single detail of how I ran my shop is gonna go into sign tracker.

00:20:45 because, because if I had developed that, it would've been a great application for a very small slice of the sign industry. Cuz, I mean, think about running a 10 million electric sign shop. There's not a lot of those out there. So it would've been way [00:21:00] overdeveloped.

00:21:15 Um, and to be able to see all the different creative ways that people make a living in this business, right? And run businesses.

00:21:30 that take you to nowhere and that you never use. And so I'm grateful for that actually, that it's, that I was able to see that there's a simpler way to do things other than just the way I thought they needed to be done.

00:21:45 an industry expert to the product needed an industry expert to, to be able to develop it correctly too. So, Yeah.

00:21:53Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: And, and all my time spent at the competitor, uh, we won't name them on this one, but, uh, that [00:22:00] was my experience as well of like, you know, you have to have people that come from the industry to sell and support software that you're selling to the industry, because if you don't mm-hmm.

00:22:15 really selling the software, like the software sells itself. Mm-hmm. It's more in on the support side. Mm-hmm. And if you can't speak the lingo, if you don't understand the challenges of a shop owner, it's, it's, it is very difficult being in this market.[00:22:30]

00:22:30joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Mm-hmm. It is. And, and, um, and I, and I, and I love that part of the business. You know, I, I haven't, um, my last sign shop, my daughter and my son-in-law took it over, you know, and um, so I haven't worked in a sign shop in close to five years now, but I still [00:22:45] feel like I do, cuz I'm helping solve problems every single day talking to folks and our support person.

00:23:00 sign shop and then owned his own sign shop for three years before he, you know, went back to school and became a developer. So it's kind of nice that three of us and then my other two main business partners, they've been in it now so long, like they know all the lingo they've, they've had to listen to, you know, talk to sign [00:23:15] folks constant, and listen to me constantly, you know.

00:23:20Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: support team at Sign

00:23:21joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Tracker look like right now? So right now it's me. And then I have, um, we have a full-time support person, Brooke, [00:23:30] and both of us, you know, pretty much we, you know, we have a, an internal chat tool. Our response time on that is anywhere from three to five minutes.

00:23:45 here in the us, they're in, uh, Reno. They also, uh, will monitor that. So when it comes to, when it comes to like the first level of support, like, oh, I forgot my password. Oh, you know, and some basic functionality questions, [00:24:00] Brooke and I, you know, take care of that.

00:24:15 there's four of us that are actively monitoring it.

00:24:30 in support and, and sign

00:24:32Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: tracker's.

00:24:38joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: a customer count, excuse me, customer count. But we, we have uh, around 500. So we're just a smidge under 500 right now. 500 [00:24:45] customers? Yep. 505 red and shops? Yep. 500 shops.

00:24:48Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Got it. Got it. So as a follow up to that, what is your plan to attract your next

00:24:54joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: 500 owners?

00:25:00 question. No, it's a, it's a, it is a good question. It's a great question. Um, and, and we're, we're, you know, how do you get traction in marketing, right? So I will readily admit that I am a shake your hand. Let's go out to lunch. Uh, let me come to [00:25:15] your office and give a presentation and tell you stories around the sign projects we did.

00:25:30 want to give people a sense of that you're in tune to them and all that stuff, but it's, it's a lower touch, right? Like, how do you fill that top end of the funnel?

00:25:45 I think you guys know, we started, uh, behind the signs, and originally we started the behind the science group on Facebook, kind of as a. Alternative to a few of the other big sign groups that were on Facebook, that there's some great stuff on those, but [00:26:00] really wanted to kind of focus on one that was kind of elevating the sign industry together, right?

00:26:15 hopefully content that's, that's helpful to them. Business development content, I mean, nothing to the extent that you guys are doing with applications and stuff, but that is having a, and people are starting to associate that group with, Hey, look at all this stuff that the Sign Tracker folks are [00:26:30] giving us and providing for us and not charging us.

00:26:45 trying to put out really positive, helpful content to the industry. And we really feel that that's gonna get us to our next 500 customers.

00:27:00 as they probably should.

00:27:02Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, agreed. Agreed. I think it was, uh, who was, it was Tom mle Trot that we had on here a couple episodes ago, and he, uh, he was talking about the days when him and his brothers would go and actually [00:27:15] they would just randomly walk up to other shops and as soon as the, the shop owner learned that they were, they were shop owners themselves, they were sign painters, uh, they would put away all the stuff that, all the drawings, like all the paint, like everything [00:27:30] is going up.

00:27:45 resources to, to help

00:27:45joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: everybody grow. Yeah, exactly.

00:28:00

00:28:01Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: mine too.

00:28:04joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Uh, yeah, and my wife's a lawyer too, so I'm screwed. Like I would just have to sign a blank.

00:28:15 small. I would do two or three, two or three things, you know, very, very well and maybe outsource the rest of it, you know, and just keep it simple and manageable and make a living, like the idea, like for me, the idea of growing another big shop, it's like, ah, [00:28:30] no way.

00:28:32Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: I like that idea. I like that. Being a niche shop is definitely something, not too many pe not too many people do their first go around, but I definitely can echo something like that. [00:28:45] So. Just kind of, let's let, let me kind of finalize that thought there. You you, great answer on how to get your next customers.

00:29:00 merchant processing. Mm-hmm. And I, and she's, and she's doing this remotely. And I'm like, oh, well, you know, you're a beautiful girl. You know, you're young, you're energetic, you're a family woman too, so people are gonna resonate with you, but you gotta get out there and you gotta shake some hands.

00:29:15 well, what's, what's like an important thing that I can do? I'm like, I'll tell you a quick little story. I, the only reason why I went with a local guy that did my merchant processing was because he came to my door mm-hmm. And said, I will, [00:29:30] I will. I shook your hand, gave me a coffee mug. And he said, I'm gonna deliver receipt paper.

00:29:45 you know, you never want to be out of receipt paper, but I don't even think we do receipt paper anymore, but most, most receipts are invoice, uh, emailed and things like that.

00:30:00 I, I love that. Mm-hmm. I love that you do that. I think that's what makes you unique. I would hope that one day, uh, whenever it comes, when you get your thousandth customer, that you do not change that. Mm-hmm. Although you probably have to shake a lot more [00:30:15] hands.

00:30:30 shop is an account that pays a monthly retainer mm-hmm. That has, that uses the software.

00:30:45 level of increased support tickets that you will have. Mm-hmm. Um, innovation. So many, I could keep going. So many more things will also increase as your customer bandwidth does. Mm-hmm. However, um, with, with that being [00:31:00] said,

00:31:01joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: what

00:31:01Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: are your plans for growing?

00:31:15 apps, integrations with new apps that are PR built around productivity and maybe chat G P T and other things like that, that are AI related?

00:31:23joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Mm-hmm. What are your plans in that area?

00:31:30 super helpful for me to write articles, you know, so for, for out, for outlines, you know, uh, so no, but all, you know, all joking aside with that, I, I have, I have found it useful actually. Um, but no, where, you know, I'm, you [00:31:45] know, I am, again, not a developer, but I am, I am grateful that I have really, really great development partners and engineers that I work with.

00:32:00 list, yes, we've been a little limited, um, in our ability to add features that we really want to just because we're a small team, but we are growing and as we grow, we're reinvesting back into the business.

00:32:15 behind it is my garage. And you know, like we, we all work remote. We keep our, you know, our overhead really lean so that we can invest back in the business. So, The more we, you know, grow the base of our customers and listen to what their challenges are.

00:32:30 developing solutions around that. And that's pretty much how we've done it right from the beginning. They needed a place to be able to store all their files. Okay? So we built file storage within the job. They needed a place to view all their files in this source. Okay? So we built viewers. [00:32:45] Now, you know, now, hey, I need to be able to send contracts straight out of the, um, the app and have clients sign them like a DocuSign.

00:33:00 they, they have one client that bugs the crap out of them for one feature and then they build it. And maybe that one client and a few others are happy. But next thing you know, You know, they've done it again and again and again.

00:33:15 lot of the features aren't used. So we try really hard to interview a lot of clients before we add another feature. And I think we're gonna keep, keep going down that path. Yes, we do want to do some more integrations. We're actually interviewing someone next week that kind of [00:33:30] specializes in integration so that we can think about some of the important things that we should integrate.

00:33:45 product is not stagnant, I'll just put it that way. We, we are constantly working on it and, and doing little sprint releases.

00:34:00 has a couple mill they're wanting to throw on sign tracker, then we'll ramp up really quick.

00:34:04Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: You know, you took the win from my sales on the next question there. But, but ideally, your philosophy on handling new feature request is centered around a, a [00:34:15] pretty rigorous interview between mm-hmm.

00:34:30 thought process for you on how your company handles. Request, is it something that they can respect? Is it something that they think is, it goes into a queue and over promising and [00:34:45] underdelivering?

00:34:46joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: your process for that? Yeah, I, I, you know, I'm your typical sign sales guy, so I've had, I've had bad habits in my life of over-promising and un underdelivering, but, but now that I'm, now that I'm

00:34:56Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: old

00:34:56joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: and wise, I've, uh, I've stopped doing that. Um, so [00:35:00] basically when somebody, you know, when we're pretty honest with them, right?

00:35:15 around, and we keep, you know, notes on the answers to those questions. What, you know, what is your use case based like, like why, why would you, what would you use this feature for?

00:35:30 a great idea. We're gonna put this on our development. Ideas board and um, ideas board. There you go. Yeah. We're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna promise it's going into the queue.

00:35:45 this feature, and it seems like something that could be added in a six to eight week sprint, and we can talk to a few other folks a around that suggestion, then we do it. And so I love that

00:35:55Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: approach. I love the approach, you know, tech companies, not [00:36:00] necessarily just in this space, but when they hear a feature, they're like, okay, let's get that done.

00:36:15 being. Is it? Mm-hmm. It kind of morphs into something. Beyond what? Beyond the original strategy.

00:36:30 coming up with a P O s. Despite my numerous attempts. We're not, we're not doing a

00:36:37Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: p, we're just not gonna do it.

00:36:39joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: And,

00:36:39Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: and, and the vision is clear and we're [00:36:45] continuingly taking and speaking to people on a platform that are asking us for features.

00:37:00 queue there is I love that. Yeah. I, I love that very, very much applaud to you for putting something like that in play for you. I, I think that's great.

00:37:15 follow this up with, I have two more, two or three more questions left. All right. All right. And, and I know we're running a little short on time here, so I'll make 'em quick, but.

00:37:24joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: For me

00:37:25Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: and I guess for the, the hundreds of listeners that we have out there.

00:37:30 Why, and I'm, I'm sure you have a queued up answer for this, so I'm gonna just ask you why should our listeners use the software over

00:37:37joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: others? And I, you know, you don't want to just say, well, look, it's designed, it's, it's where, where, where can I go here? I [00:37:45] don't know if I have this queue up. I don't wanna, I obviously, my first thought is, well, it's, it's affordable, but, but I don't want to, we don't wanna just be known as like the affordable solution in the sign industry.

00:38:00 is for smaller shops. But I would say, look, sign tracker. We know that the majority of our customers are not staring at a computer all day, right? Like, they need to get in, get some information, store a file, [00:38:15] make a note, assign a task, and probably gonna be out in the shop making signs or out in the field installing signs.

00:38:30 let's say even, even even a, like a Trello app or something like that, where you want a little bit more functionality that's sign shop related. But certainly if you're coming from any kind of a whiteboard paper folder, keep it in my head.

00:38:45 places, sign tracker's a great step in, in, in the right direction. We've had some customers that have about grown us. Um, we had a shop that had, you know, 40 employees and they needed a full e r P system. Um, they needed bar coding and, you know, [00:39:00] Time tracking for, uh, you know, for their cus for against the job, you know, all that stuff.

00:39:15 of most sign shops of, you know, up to five, between five and 10 employees, sign tracker's ideal. It's simple, it's affordable.

00:39:29Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: [00:39:30] that. So you are between, so your, your ideal customer from your perspective that you're targeting is a shop three to 10 employees.

00:39:38joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Mm-hmm.

00:39:39Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Is it that, is there a specific, uh, industry, like can they do wrap? Can they be wrap shops?

00:39:45 they be print shops? Can they be vinyl, electrical? What's the ideal shop look like? Uh,

00:39:50joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: All of the above. Um, all the above. Yeah. It's, it's all of the above. So that's the other thing too, cuz there are some, you know, some of the applications that are out there that are very [00:40:00] specific to electric sign shops, there's some that are very specific to just vinyl shops, right?

00:40:15 are gonna be the quoting templates, the task templates that you, and you can build them yourself. You're, you're, you're, it's really flexible. So on the same quote worksheet in sign tracker, you could do a channel letter set, window vinyl, and a box wrap all on one quote.[00:40:30]

00:40:45 that do I do a little bit of everything kind of thing.

00:40:51Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: what I was gonna say. Yeah. Hey, like there's a, a lot of convergence happening lately with equipment costs going down and, uh, just, [00:41:00] you know, everybody doing a little bit of everything. Yeah.

00:41:02Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: Um, okay. So I'm a, I'm a sign shop and I have four employees and I'm doing sub a million dollars in gross sales, and I have over, let's [00:41:15] just say, over 300 customers in my book.

00:41:30 walk into my shop and I say, J and I see you seem like a really fascinating human being. I shake your hand and you tell me all about sign tracker and I decide this is really a good opportunity for me to get in with a

00:41:41joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: software.

00:41:44Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: the [00:41:45] onboarding with your software software look like for

00:41:47joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: a shop like me? So, well, first we have a 14 day free trial, right? No credit card. Nothing. And so as soon as someone signs up, we reach out to them immediately. I [00:42:00] do, um, every week standing webinars. So I would say like, Hey, you know, come to our Wednesday webinar where I do a complete overview of the app, really focused on project, the project flow side of the app.

00:42:15 and we literally, we'll show them like, Hey, this is how you set your employees up. This is how you set your task templates up. This is how to organize your job flow board. I mean, it comes pre-organized, but if you, if, if your workflow is a little different, we help you change it and tweak it.

00:42:30 entering their jobs and used to the flow. And then the more complicated side, I think of any. App in our industry is gonna be the quoting side, right? So on on. Then once a week I have one webinar that just focuses on [00:42:45] quoting, you know, the first webinar I will show them like how the quotes feed into the jobs.

00:43:00 items if you, if you use formula items. And then how to build product templates that feed into the jobs to make quoting quicker.

00:43:15 join the webinar every week, two a week. I also do a lot of individual training too. So if they feel like, you know, cuz two or three sign shops will show up every week at those things.

00:43:30 one-on-one training sessions with them too, if it's needed. But we're committed to staying with them. You know, and, and partnering with them until they're using the app and feeling like they're, they're being successful with it.

00:43:45 now.

00:43:45Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: So it's a handholding approach. Mm-hmm. And it's free and it's free to sign up. What is the typical, uh, user signing up with? Is there a price point that

00:43:55joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: are there, is guided towards? Yep. So it's two, for two users, [00:44:00] it's 49 bucks a month. And if they sign up for a year, usually on the first year, we give them a 25% off coupon for their, if they decide to go for the year.

00:44:15 three to five users, it's 99 bucks a month, which I mean, I, I would, I would say those two groups make up about half, you know, half the business. And then, and once you get to six users, then it's unlimited and it's 149 a month.[00:44:30]

00:44:40Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: one, even at 1 49 a month, if I, if I didn't have six employees, it's not about our [00:44:45] price, right? We're not mm-hmm.

00:44:58joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: have, or [00:45:00]

00:45:00Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: what is it exactly that's preventing you from having

00:45:03joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: than 500 users? Yeah. I, I would say, you know, and, and the past, you know, the past few years since we all sort of jumped ship from our day jobs and started doing this, first it was just [00:45:15] two of us.

00:45:30 but we're doing it now.

00:45:45 the ability to send the proof and then accept credit card payment right in the app.

00:46:00 you know, but, but we're working on it, right? Yeah. I'll, we won't do that. We're working on it and it's, it is our major push right now, like that's what we're doing.

00:46:15 employees, 20. Not that we don't have customers, we do have customers that have, you know, 20 employees and 25 employees that do big electric. Projects and they just like sign tracker and they're sticking with it and I'm sure they have other things that help them with um, time tracking or whatever, but, [00:46:30] um, or inventory controls.

00:46:45 I think that, I

00:46:46Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: think it's great. Joe, I'm on your website right now. I'm checking out a couple of things.

00:46:52joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: could people find you? Uh, they can find me. Uh, they just go to sign-tracker.com [00:47:00] and, uh, and we're, you know, they can, I'm just joe sign-tracker.com so you're always welcome to send me an email directly, you know. Much to my, much to my wife's disapproval. I usually give people my, all of my customers, all [00:47:15] our customers have my cell phone, which could make vacations very tricky.

00:47:19Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Yes. I, I don't know why you do

00:47:21joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: that, but because I, cuz I'm insane. I mean, I do try, I do, I'm trying to get better at that, you know, but, uh, but I, I do try to make myself super [00:47:30] accessible, but they can reach me@joesign-tracker.com. Um, also, you know, I spend a lot of time these days on Behind the Signs, the Facebook group, behind the Signs.

00:47:45 published right on the top of the screen. So, yeah, any, you can reach out to us, all those, all those ways.

00:47:50Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Excellent. So, Joe, one of the things that I, I think is just like watching you interact on Behind the Signs and just with your own audience, I get the sense that [00:48:00] you're a guy like me that likes Talking Shop, that may be like your favorite part of the job.

00:48:15 the mastermind calls that we do is like the, the mental side of owning a sign shop. Mm-hmm. And this is kind of shifting away from the software talk, but, uh, one concept that we've seen come up a lot is the, this making this jump [00:48:30] from being a technician to an owner.

00:48:45 At, at that very first shop that you started at of mm-hmm. Like, Hey, I'm in my evening time, I'm gonna sit down and knock out some forms so things run smoother.

00:49:00 are starting out in their own side shop after working as a installer, production person, or a designer as a, at a different shop. Mm-hmm. Would, would you say that's true? Like, do you interact with a lot of people like that?

00:49:14joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Yes. [00:49:15] Yes. And so I, I saw that question that you, uh, sent to me. You know, the, the making the shift from being a technician to an owner and, you know, and I, uh, I think I went through that at a younger age cuz I, you know, I. My first [00:49:30] business I lived in, I lived in Southern California. I was in the Marine Corps.

00:49:45 religion and I don't, I don't know, man, I was like looking in the newspaper under the religion section for jobs and there is none.

00:50:00 was like four in the morning, I was just exhausted to the bone. I had three kids to feed. My wife is in college full-time. And I thought, this has gotta be a better way to do this. You know, so I can't just be cleaning offices until the sun comes up every day.

00:50:15 can I, how can I go from doing the work to. Managing the work and bringing the work in. And, you know, if you, if you think about sign shops, you know, almost every, oh, not almost everyone. This is certainly some that start off as an entrepreneurial mindset [00:50:30] and they look at it as a great opportunity.

00:50:45 designer or an installer, whatever. And then they get out there and they, they're still really good at being an installer, but they don't even know where to begin to make that shift as a business owner.

00:51:00 sales, think about your company as not an install company. You are a sales organization. That does insults. Right? So you, you need, you need, you know, that's

00:51:11Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: a good's a, it's a good shift to

00:51:14joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: start there [00:51:15] to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Start there. And then a lot of times they'll say, well, I'm not really a salesy kind of person, you know, I, look, I'm not a used car salesman, kind of a guy either, but nobody is this passionate about your business than you.[00:51:30]

00:51:45 you're a business owner. You know? Right. And so, and, and here's why you would like to work with my business.

00:52:00 So you hire people. I hear this a lot where it's like, oh man, what's, what's the bottleneck at your shop?

00:52:15 keeps it all in her head. And somehow you get a, you get a shift out of that thinking and trust the people that you hire, right?

00:52:30 gonna have to make these shifts in, you know, your thinking about who you are and about what you do at the business as far as business development, like the work you guys are doing with shop owners.

00:52:45 helping provide systems and tools, great. But they have to decide themselves that they're gonna take these things and use them to grow the business and grow people. To run the business with them. And if, and if they can't make that shift, look, if you're a great [00:53:00] installer out there and you don't think you can do all that stuff, just go find a better company to work for.

00:53:07Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: agreed. Agreed. That yeah. That's a, that's my sentiment almost exactly. Of like, Hey, if, if you're [00:53:15] not a business owner, it's okay. Like, if, if that's not in your dna, n a, it's not what makes you happy. Like just because you can't make a great living at the current shop that you're at or, you know, or, or maybe you've started [00:53:30] out on your own and you're going through this, like, it's not too late to go the other way.

00:53:45 Yeah. They're out there. The other, one thing that I wanted to touch on before we let you go was just like the, the mental health aspect.

00:54:00 loved her book of how to, I forget the name of it now, how to like, be an entrepreneur without losing your shit. Yeah. And I, I re, I've read through that book and I really like a lot of what she said resonated with me because I am, I'm like, [00:54:15] I would call myself a recovering workaholic of mm-hmm.

00:54:30 about a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, I talk to a lot of shop owners that are working 60, 80 hours a week. Mm-hmm. And I, I think as you and I both know, Pete knows it's usually not a great recipe for success or mm-hmm.

00:54:45 success. And I know you had some of your own struggles with, uh, like overwork at your sign shop, and I, I've heard you talk about like alcohol and, and things like that. Would you care to expand on that just a little bit for our

00:54:59joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: listeners? [00:55:00] Sure. Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm comfortable talking about, about that.

00:55:15 60 plus hour work week and keep our shit together. It just doesn't work. Um, and so, You have to do something and, and just what we were talking about earlier, maybe it's a, a matter of like building a team and trusting and letting go.

00:55:30 me, you know, I, I tend to be a control freak. You know, I'm a little better now that I'm a little older. But, um, and so I would stay at the shop. I was your typical guy that would stay, work weekends and stay there, you know, 40, 50 hours a week. And, you know, [00:55:45] and I, look, I grew up in the seventies, right?

00:56:00 really young and I couldn't afford any of that crap. And besides, I was trying to be a better person. And, uh, so I didn't, I didn't really drink through my twenties and, and into my thirties or any of that stuff.

00:56:15 work, or go out with clients and have some drinks, or, you know, and this thing kind of, you know, it snowballed, right? So you do, you start doing one thing to relieve the pressure, and ultimately we know it doesn't work and, but you tend to do more and more of it.

00:56:30 del developing a, a bad habit with it as a way of relieving pressure. And so, um, towards the end when I finally did, did stop drinking, um, yeah, it was, it was becoming a problem. I'm not talking about vodka [00:56:45] bottles under the kitchen sink kind of drinking, but it was every single night, you know, and some days going, going to work, you know, a little hungover.

00:57:00 starting, uh, studio o with my daughter. Um, I did work for a couple years for another sign shop while we were building sign tracker, selling signs and, and, uh, I would stay at that shop super late doing quotes.

00:57:15 so we got to know that the guys at the shop would go over every night, drink, drinking. It just became an every night ordeal. And so, uh, one night I was sitting at my desk, I'm like three pints into doing some quotes cause it was a smaller shop, so I had to do my own quotes and stuff.

00:57:30 up and said, Joe, he, he was pretty just blatant in my face. I think you're an alcoholic. Ah, no. You know, and, but he, he invited me to an AA meeting and I went and I started hearing all these stories. I'm like, holy crap, maybe I am an alcoholic, you know? So I [00:57:45] decided to take a 30 day break on alcohol and it's turned into going on 10 years, so.

00:58:00 Gump. And so in, in 10 years I've run, uh, 20 marathons, a half a dozen trail, runs a 50 mile trail run mountain runs. I've done four half Iron Mans and I'm looking at my ribbon wall over [00:58:15] there, but, oh, nice.

00:58:30 and, uh, and yeah, it's worked. You know, I, I definitely feel like a happier, less stressed out person these days.

00:58:36Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Well, you, you definitely answered where I was gonna take that next was like, you know, what are, were the skills and like the strategies that you developed to, to combat the stress [00:58:45] in instead of, you know, I, I would say it like misusing alcohol because I, I've been there as well of like, Hey, I have way too many beers a couple days in a row, and I'm like, wait, like I, you know, this is, this is not healthy.

00:59:00 You took up running. And I would, I would encourage, like all of our listeners, like if you're a shop owner and you don't take time out of the day to exercise, just like for me, I throw on a 30 pound, uh, BR backpack. I've got a, [00:59:15] like a flat weight that sits in my backpack. I an hour every day.

00:59:28joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: said. [00:59:30] No, you can't. And, and, and it's different for everybody, right? Like, so you might, you know, you might find that meditation, I use the Calm app, which is really good.

00:59:45 gotta find what works for you. And, and I, I don't know if you, you know, I don't know if you watched the whole episode with Sherry Walling, the interview that I did, but you know, I like what she says a lot too, is get to a point your day where you say that's it enough is enough.

01:00:00 know, 15 hour days cuz you gotta get stuff done. But take a break point and say, okay, I'm done. I leave it here, breathe in whatever you need to do to separate yourself mentally from the work and go home with your family and enjoy that.

01:00:15 home for 45 minutes. Who knows? But you gotta do something for sure.

01:00:19Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Perfect. Well, Joe, uh, we appreciate you coming on. It's been a, a really interesting conversation. I was glad to, to have you back and, uh, you know, I, I've really [01:00:30] enjoyed this. Looking forward to what you guys do next with Sound Tracker.

01:00:45 helpful for a lot of folks. Yeah.

01:00:46joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you guys and I think you're doing great work out there too. You know, there's not, there's not enough people out there helping sign shop owners and, and you know, we all need that support for sure.

01:01:00

01:01:00Bryant Gillespie: #6600cc;">Bryant Gillespie: Absolutely. Pete got any closing comments?

01:01:05Peter Kourounis: #de4a1d;">Peter Kourounis: This was one of my favorites. Thank you so much, Joe. I'm probably gonna touch base with you a little bit offline. I got some clients I think would be great for your software. All right. [01:01:15] Uh, love to connect with you a little bit offline on that, but thank you so much for jumping on here with us.

01:01:30 story. I, I, I learned a little bit. I'm sure our listeners

01:01:32joe arenella: #254693;">joe arenella: did too. Well, I appreciate you guys very much. All excellent.

01:01:45 better sign shop.com. Get free resources and helpful tools on growing your shop. Thanks for listening.